Ok, we are now at the start of Vago deliveries. My dealer "confirmed" the first week of July (that was when I ordered my XD 3 months ago). Any first lucky owners out there?

1. Saw on a Dutch website that the weight is 75kg - is it from the manufacturer/estimated based on prototypes/or what?

2. I fully intend to car top it - any first ideas on the best way to do this, especially on what to do with the mast?

Get a road trailer as roof topping a boat like this will be too much hassle. It is a false economy not too.

If you get a road trailer you can go from the trailer to water single handed in minutes rather than needing lots of people to get it on/off the roof of your car.

The only real boat to be on the roof of a car nowadays is the Topper. Most Laser sailors use combi trailers - well the ones that came to our open meeting recently did.

Portsmouth uni sailing club have had one for a while on loan from laser for pretty much destruction testing. So far it is very much in one piece as far as I know. There has been talk of making it twin wire and taking it out when it is stupidly windy to see what happens

I haven't sailed it but it appears to be a good concept and very easy to sail. I guess this is laser's 3000 replacement? Pretty slow though, a very old fireball on a two sail reach overtook it when it had the kite up...

Reading the test in Y&Y they certainly seem to have kept the wieght down.  If so this could be a good boat and satisfy the multipurpose role.  Don't pretend its all that fast though - a RS400 is much faster and doesn't need a trapeze.  No one is ever going to produce a fast racing machine and also satisfy a multipurpose role.

What is a trapeze worth - 2% - that's 20 PY points for boats of this performance?

Re: cartoping, will post the pictures here. By putting it up on its stern and the sliding on the racks upside-down, it's a one-man effort (some physical aptitude required of course).

Re how much a trapeze worth: since there is no keel, the righting moment you generate is equal the heeling moment generated by the sail. The boat is 150cm wide. This means that by hiking you have 75-100cm times you weight as the righting moment. By going out on the trapeze you double your righting moment since you centre of gravity shifts about 75cm out (depends on your height). So for some tacks in strong wind you speed can theoretically double (in practice less, because drag increases more than linearly with speed). So across all tacks and wind conditions, I'd say trapeze is worth 25%. Skiff sailors can add more insight off-course.

Re: speed - there is no magic in making a boat and calling it "racing" - just put a bigger sail on. Don't think anyone can argue that either Vago or RS400 has a more efficient hull shape, not until there are a few years of data and like-for-like testing to make a claim. RS400 has 14.75m main+jib and 14m spi. Vago XD is at 12m and 13m. There you have it, less sail. Probably means that downwind in light wind and double-handed, RS400 is faster. Also means that upwind in strong wind and single-handed Vago can maintain a more efficient sail shape and likely be faster.

Vago is also smaller and cheaper. There are many definitions of "better" in boats. It may turn out that more people will have more fun with Vago, and this means better in my book.

I chose to buy the Vago for the following reasons,

• I have only being sailing for two years and I still have lots to learn.
• I wanted a boat I could sail single or double handed.
• A boat that was fast enough to be fun without being to much of a handful when the wind gets up.

I have sailed the following boats Stratos, L2000, L3000, L4000, Vortex, Dart 16, RS400 and RS Vareo, so I have a good basis for comparision. I found the Vago to be quick compared to the Stratos, L2000, L3000 and the Vareo. The L4000 is faster, but so much more unforgiving, if you make a mistake you go for a swim. The RS400 is a lovely fast boat, but I find having to face backwards when tacking or gybing when crewing to be a big turnoff, especialy when combined with a very intrusive kicking strap. The Vortex is fast, but I never really got to grips with it and found recovery from a capsize to be a pain.

I haven't sailed any other boats, so I can't comment on the merits of the 29er, but from watching other people trying to sail one at Menorca Sailing in May it looks to be trickier than the L4000.

no peter hardly any one wants a mirror they're far too slow and most are too higher maintainance

Don't knock the Mirror, it has many virtues, although I concede speed is not one of them.

I would like to point out that sailing a 4000 or 800 is much easier when you are not racing.  I have observed many people return from a great time sailing these boats at Menorca Sailing and having a torrid time when they find themselves having to sail, tack and gybe in gusty winds and in close company with other boats.

Woops! I'm getting off the point - the Vago sounds like a good choice by Sumo.

Exactly, I want to sail a dinghy where I can concentrate on my technique rather than just going from one swim to the next without understanding why.

With regard to the Mirror, I have sailed one once in the mid seventies, I haven't even considered it. I like a dinghy with an asymetric, so much more fun going downhill, so I'm afraid it is no to a Mirror.

Zig-zaging downwind is not nonsense - no more than zig-zaging upwind.  However you'll find the Mirror surprisingly responsive and rewarding and also very versitile.  Small kids love them because you can row and paddle them and the sheet loads are light.  They carry an adult and a couple of kids quite well and if you take the rig off and row it you'll find you can comfoatably carry 2 adults and 2 kids.  We used to car top ours since the spars are short and the hull is light.  A brilliant boat and when cruising down rivers there's no need for that zig-zaging nonsense since the spinnaker is conventional.

However the wooden ones have thin floors - so adults should resist jumping up and down on it and always leave the boat so that water does not collect.  I drilled a hole just aft of the centreboard case and put a bung in it.  Then in the dinghy park with the bung out it always drained.

Getting back to the Vago.  This sounds like a good trainer for teenagers and with the suggested yardstick it has about the same performance as a Buzz which also makes a good trainer for teenagers.  The Buzz seems a highly underated boat and is a bargain because of it.  Don't try to compare either with the Laser 4000.  Neither have enough performance to "apparent wind" sail regularly whereas the 4000 has just enough to make it a common occurence - and that is a whole different way of sailing.

I'm wondering how it fits in with the Laser 3000 which must have similar performance to the Buzz and has the pedigree of being a Bethwaite hull.

Me too. I think the 3000 was a really good boat, it felt good and great for learning trapeze/asymmetric sailing, it just needed a F3-4 to get it going. Shame the class died, probably since after sailing it for a season or so it would easy to move up to the 4000 or even an RS800.

I can see the vago being more successful in this respect, since it appears to be aimed at people who want something only maginally more exciting than a 2000 or something and not is not a racing class as far as I'm aware.

Having sailed the L3000 I can say that the Vago is a much better boat, faster, more stable and more comfortable.

In reference to the earlier comment with regard to Symetric versus Assymetric, the key advantage of the later is that you can sail single handed.

What is wrong with being slow ?,  the speed or lack of it is one of the factors that makes the Mirror so great.  It means the racing is incredibly close, you have to work very hard to squeeze the last ounce of speed out of the boat and keep a good position in the fleet.  At the Nationals we had 91 boats,  each race had a different winner and only the winner managed to post all results in the top ten and this was only just with a couple of eights and a tenth,  so no room for error.  We also had numerous top sailors and champions from other classes competing with the likes of Vince Horey (Fireball) and John Brickwood (Lark) out there with their children,  and people like Ian Walker coming back to Mirrors.  So how can you claim no one wants a Mirror.

With regards maintenance,  competitive (won the Europeans) FRP boats are available and we are introducing all alloy spars,  so shouldn't be an issue.  Complete race boats start from £3500.  Wooden boats are epoxy coated and have stiffer floors,  so unlikely to fall through.

Simon Lovesey
Class Secretary
http://www.ukmirrorsailing.com/ - www.ukmirrorsailing.com

As we're all leaping to the defense of mirrors, always felt that singlehanding in a breeze, you hardly seem to notice that you're the slowest thing on the water.  Planes ridiculously easily (fireball-esque hull maybe?), kicks up huge amounts of spray and the whole rig hums.  Fair enough, if your after being first back to the jetty after each race, you might have problems, but if you're just out for a laugh sailing (and something that pops up easily when you capsize it), mirror's still up there.

Anyways, sorry, what were we talking about?!

The UK class has just voted to allow all alloy spars and a bermuda rig,  and centre main,  this will make the Mirror a proper little race boat

Leave the poor boy alone Stu...  
Don't you think it's quite a feat to write the whole paragraph without breathing?

And don't you admire the divination skills:

Come on, Pete... chill out!  It's great to be loyal to a class, but you've got to admit there are more state-of-the-art objects floating around.
(no rude comments, please )

Cheers BNS (the peace keeper)

Can I have the last word on Mirrors before we continue with Vagos.  There is no point about talking absolute speed with sail boats - most people can ride a bike much faster than any sail boat!  However the Mirror is an extremely responsive little boat.  Did you know that stunt planes often have the ends cut off their wings to reduce inertia.  Similarly the chopped off bow gives the Mirror very light ends and you can feel it when steering.  Its one of the many charms of this very versitile boat.

Having read the Vago test in Y&Y I'd say this could turn out to be a significant  design.  I look forward to seeing one in the flesh especially as the finish looks good compared to other rotomoulded designs.

I think you'll find the chopped off ends just make it shorter...

it also allows more volume in the bow underwater so that buoyancy distribution is improved

I agree with the sentiment, i.e. most people seem to view a boat's speed as the only criteria to consider, which is why I am buying a Vago and not a second hand Laser 4000. I personaly want to sail a boat that challanges my skills without overwhelming them. I do however see the Vago as a stepping stone to a higher performance dinghy in the future, if I continue to learn and improve. It is for that reason that I haven't and wouldn't consider a Mirror, not because I think the Mirror is in any way a bad dinghy. Indeed the Mirror from a historical stand point provided a very cheap way for a lot of people to go sailing. I for one love the fact that we have so much choice in what dinghy to sail, i.e. it should be impossible not to find a dinghy suitable for anybodies personal requirements. 

Well said Rupert.  Here here.  Too many E numbers in their sweeties I think.

Wonder what sort of weight the Vago can cope with?  I'll be interested to see one out on the water.

funny how the Vago-specific thread got taken over by Mirror/Optimist opinions. The reason I chose Vago is that it seems to be in the sweet spot of price/size/complexity/modern design, made by the only manufacturer with the truly global distribution network. All this gives it a better shot at becoming the new Laser than any other boat.

In the meanwhile, my shipping date was delayed by 1 week - supposed to be shipped (to Italy) on July 12ths. How many RS boats or Toppers are there in Italy or Germany (my locations) compared to Lasers? Almost none.

Yes, may be one day when my sons grow up we will have the skills to sail the 49ers. Or may be they will take up cat sailing like their dad. If speed were the only considerations there would not be any dinghy sailing - I can run circles around any RS boat in my catamaran, and sail much faster than (comparable sailor skill) 49er. Yet I am also buying the Vago, because I think it is the best deal around in dinghies on fun/performance/price and will grow into one of the largest "classes" globally (also = resale value).

Hi earthbm

I'll be interested in your experiences with the Vago when it arrives.  Don't forget photos as well.  My view is it will probably sell pretty well.  Looks OK on dry land anyway.

I sailed the Vago on Sunday and was actually quite surprised at it. As I'm not a great fan of the versitile boats - I was pleasently surprised. There were a few issues that came up with it - sterring. As soon as any heel comes onto the boat the sterring is impossible. Which means when a gust hits whilst the kite is up it is very diffucult to bear away. Also the speed going along the reach with kite up wasnt that impressive, it could be a lot faster. Also if it was made out of fibreglass rather than the rotomould it would look a lot better and sexier. However as a Europe sailor (ex Radial sailor) I think any boat with more than one sail and a trapeze is great fun. It is very comfortable to hike and trapeze from. As a mess about boat its perfect. But I wouldnt buy one for racing - I like to be competive. But i can see the appeal for the intermediate club sialor who wants a bit of fun to build up their skills. Its the best versitile boat on the market!!

PS Well done London  - We are gonna rock just bring on London2012

Every picture tells a tale.

In a certain 'other publication' this month, there's a photo of the Minorca Sailing Vago fleet being sailed by their instructors and sporting the most enormous masthead flotation bags I've seen.

Nothing so very surprising there - a lot of the latest boats love to invert. But, amusingly, three pages later the same photo appears in a Laser advert with the said flotation devices photoshopped out....

that must be a big bag

i would have thought that a large orange thing blowing around at the top of the mast would increase the likely hood of a capsize even if it did stop the capsize turning into an inversion isnt it better not to have as many capsizes in the first place?

would it not be better to use something smaller just to slow down an inversion and reduce the likelyhood of a capsize in the first place (thinking milk bottles)

I have "said" magazine and hadn't noticed the "spot the difference" betwwen the wo, will go and study them more!!!