hey there! i currently have a 420, but its not really for me! (a very long story!) I am thinking of getting an rs200...i want a double hander but with no trapeze. any ideas? opinions on rs200?

cheers

why don't you like the 420 why do you like the rs200?

total weight is about 18st. myself and my crew...we have both been sailing for about 7-8yrs....first in gp14s, then toppers, lasers and 420s, i dislike the 420 for several resons but i am not a trapezing person really...it doesn't suit us.

With modern Carbon raking rigs you can set up a Merlin for an 18 stone crew and go just as quick in a blow as the lardarses, Get a Merlin its about the most developed 2 man hiking boat with a symetric kite.

It has a great silver tiller (open meeting) circuit, Salcombe merlin week is guaranteed to have at least 92 merlins racing and this years champs at Hayling are set to be massive.

Decisions, decisions.

Lovely boat, great people, and it will be around as a class long after SMODs like the RS200 are forgotten. 

Weight for a 200 depends on where and how you intend to sail it. You can certainly get away with 18st if you predominantly sail in sub force 4 and especially inland.

Merlins are fantastic as well, but why oh why do they love Salcombe so much? Don't get me wrong, its a lovely place for a holiday but as a venue for a competative sailing event it's the pits. Still 90 boats on what is little more than a wide river must make it fun as long as no-one gets too serious.

Scorpions and Larks both have a good following as well and both are good to sail although you're possibly too light for a Scorp?

Where do you sail?

The old advice about sailing something thats popular at your club, or at least in your area holds good. If you're not going to travel to many opens, you'll have more fun at your club if you're in a fleet. if there's no suitable fleet in your club find one where there is!

It is certainly serious, but they don't all sail at the same time: you are split into flights. Salcombe is a fantastic place to sail if you want a change from the endless identical courses we spend so much of the time doing. You just need to learn it's little peculiarities.  

I can't agree with one of the previous posts.  Some SMODs will fade (and quite possibly my 4000 is one of them) but the RS200 and the 400 are such good boats I can't see them superceeded.

This will make a good subject for another thread, which I will start - keep your eyes open.

With the scorpions optimum weight taken from the top 10 boats is 22 to about 25 stone, though peter rose has his tiny crew they do quite well. At the nationals last year Peter Rose finnished 17th with andrew crewing, First youth boat was Stuart Hopson (me!) and Rich Jones in 23rd weighing 24 stone next youth boat was 43rd with john rose and Edward barnes. weighing at about 20 stone but it was a very strong wind nationals with waves.

Scorpions are very good in big waves though if the waves are steep or choppy i would recomend a bag boat, they surf brilliantly down the waves.

I would say any one with a combined crew weight of over 18 stone could sail one inland due to the raking rig allowing a dramatic decrease in power but very little speed loss. Though i would recomend a strong crew because the kite can be very heavy to pump in winds above a f4.

If your interested i would recomend you have a sail in one before you buy as they aren't always as easy to sail as it looks. If there are no other scorpions at your club i wouldn't recomend one as you won't be able to learn off other sailor of the class inless you plan to do the open circuit hope this enlightens any potential scorpion owners

How many SMODs have been in production for, say, 30+ years? Answer: less than you can count on one hand. Are RS200s really going to be around in 30 years. Well none of us has a crystal ball but statistically, it has to be unlikely. Will Merlins, I14s etc be around in 2035? I bet they will, although what they will have evolved into by then, I have no idea. The point is that they are not a OD so they can change.

Cally,

You should definitely go for an RS200.  My understanding is that you would be ok sailing a 200 with a combined weight in the range of 18-22 stone.  The class is very popular at the moment, and they have a great racing circuit that attracts all abilities.  The "downside" is that due to their popularity resale values are strong - so finding a "bargin" 2nd hand is tricky, but at least you should get good money for it if you want to sell on.

You really shouldn't concern yourself trying to predict if a class will exist in 30 years time, and letting that govern which boat you buy would be silly.  There's plenty of miles left in the RS200.

If you want to spend less money, non-Rondar Larks are very good value at the moment.  However the boats are generally less well sorted and more flimsy than the RS200.  A couple of years ago I thought the Lark was about to expire, but the class has done a good job promoting itself.

So if you can afford it, get an RS200.  If you can't afford an RS200, get a Lark.

C

Yes it would be silly and it is not what I said at all. Please read what I said in context before you attack it. 

Not sure this is the right thread for SMOD vs Restricted classes debate, but here goes!

I've said Merlins are great so no axe to grind there, but lets be realistic here, not very many years ago they were a 'fading' class. This was due to a combination of:

1) Competition from SMODs (notably the RS400) and

2) The extortionate cost of a new boat (they were alll very beautiful wooden clinker but had to be built by hand by craftsmen).

They were also difficult to maintain, rigs were heavy and unsophisticated, the kite was a handkerchief etc etc. Simply given the choice of spending £10000 on a new Merlin or half that on an RS400, many decided to go for a change.

Enthusiasts within the class saw the problems and took action. First the kite was enlarged, then the best designs were built in epoxy foam sandwich making them affordable and carbon rigs were introduced. The new generation boats are great, they're are easy to maintain, the rigs are light and very adjustable and they go like a rocket ship (pun intended). And so many who went elsewhere have returned to the class.

No doubt you could still build a fast wood Merlin but at near twice the cost why would you? Hence little development (when all were wood there was lots of chance for experimentation - out of a mould - very little chance).

The truth is however that there are now only basically two boats competative enough to be worth buying  - and Winder Boats (modified Canterbury Tales) build most of the boats (can't remember who the other main builder is). So the class today is a 'virtual' SMOD or more accurately 'duo manufacturer' . Yes there is more than one builder but only just, and its a big risk to go elsewhere. Yes, developments are still made but basically if you want a new competative Merlin you go to Winder or ??? You still have a choice of rigs and layout although a majority go for the 'standard' Winder layout.

Moving on to a one design (multi manufacturer) look at the Fireball. Who in their right mind would buy anything but a Winder nowadays? They are simply the best - easily. So again the class has become a 'virtual' SMOD. With about 50% of the top sailors using sail from P&B, a standard layout and only one manufacturer worth considering, this is as near to a SMOD as you can get without it actually being one.

The saving grace for both these classes is that unlike the true SMODs there is potential for another builder to make a comeback - so if say the Severn sailboats license holder developed a new Fireball that was fast, and Hyde developed some faster sails there could be a real choice again. That keeps the current 'top dogs' on their toes and hopefully keeps pricing under reasonable control.

"No doubt you could still build a fast wood Merlin but at near twice the cost why would you?"

People do though. Why? One good reason is that they are prettier and people like them. Not everyone goes for the cheapest option. Nobody needs a boat. They are a luxury item.

Agreed that hull development is at a slow pace and has been for the last 10 years, but the hull is not the whole boat and there has been plenty of rig development, which is continuing. So it is nothing like a OD. I've owned several ODs and several Merlins and it is a quite different experience to have the freedom to experiment and, yes, more expensive.

You're right.  It's not. 

Someone asked advice on if they should buy an RS200.

If you think it's a worthwhile debate, start another thread otherwise the person that started this thread will get swamped with arguements on both sides!

I guess I was reading your comments in the context of the general thread, i.e. someone asked about whether they should buy an RS200.

Apologies if you took offense.

Thanks for that CJ I consider my hand firmly slapped

You've obviously not been a member long  - if you think that was 'off subject' you should read some of the other threads! And in any case, it was actually someone else who raised the SMOD issue. My point was that even the non SMOD classes are tending to go that way. It is undeniable that for my two example classes there are far fewer manufacturers and or experimentation going on than say 10 years ago. The relevance to our potential RS200 owner is that if he wants a stable one design IMHO he doesn't have to restrict himself to SMODS.

Indeed. Starting a thread is like having a baby. You can influence it early on but then it takes on a life of its own.

hey!

just to let you all know, I have decided on an RS200....when i can afford one. 

thanks for all your help though. I had a look at all of the suggestions and decided taht the RS is going to be the best overall...

will be selling when i go off to uni, so i hope they keep there value for another few years!

cheers