Shortened course
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7517
Printed Date: 08 Aug 25 at 2:02pm
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Topic: Shortened course
Posted By: crosby mafia
Subject: Shortened course
Date Posted: 30 Jan 11 at 11:33pm
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What is the correct way to round the mark when the race is shortened ? Here is the story... The course was to leave the mark to port, and on to the next mark. But due to a massive reduction in wind and the slower boats may not finish, the course was shortened. The club line was the opposite end of the lake, to the next mark in question, which meant the mark needed to be left to starboard or loop around. All boats left the mark to starboard and finished but over a cup of tea a "rules Guru" started to try and reason which was was correct. So can anyone give the correct way to do it, is it either..... a) leave the mark to port and loop around it and to the finish line OR b) leave to starboard and to the finish line. I await with baited breath.... ------------- Better a crap day in Abersoch than any day at work. |
Replies:
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 31 Jan 11 at 12:00am
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The RRS, (see rule 32.2 below) without other details in the Sailing Instructions, only work where the shorten course signal is given nearby to a rounding mark or a gate, or the finishing line is a line boats are required to cross at the end of each lap.
Difficult to answer without seeing the Sailing Instructions relevant to shortening course, so please post them if you can.
Meanwhile, assuming that the SI say something like "if flag S is displayed with two sounds, boats shall round the next mark and sail to the finishing line" (and assuming that all boats were on the same leg), then there is nothing there to change the required side of the mark, so it needs to be rounded to port.
32.2 If the race committee signals a shortened course (displays flag S with two sounds), the finishing line shall be,(a) at a rounding mark, between the mark and a staff displaying flag S;(b) at a line boats are required to cross at the end of each lap, that line; (c) at a gate, between the gate marks. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 31 Jan 11 at 6:40am
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Hmm. not quite clear about this. Is this sketch roughly right as regards the situation?
Green being the course that was set, red being the course that was actually sailed? It does depends completely on the SIs etc, but unless there is something very specific going on I think it depends on whether the mark was defined as a rounding mark or a passing mark. I believe the default is a passing mark... 
In that case, if the port hand mark is a rounding mark then the string rule applies, and cyan is correct. If on the other hand its a passing mark then competitors would be within their rights to sail the purple course and peel off to the finish as soon as the shorten flag appears, because they will still have left the mark to port. For red to be correct there would have to be something quite complicated in the SIs I think. But clearly red was the sane thing to do in the circumstances! |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 31 Jan 11 at 10:45pm
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JimC, Nice visualisation and nice diagram.
Yes, marks are only rounding marks if they are identified as such in the SI (rule J2.1(5) and Appendix L note to 9.2, and RYA Appeal 1985/4).
RYA 1985/4 When a race committee intends a mark to be looped, the mark must be identified as a rounding mark. When the sailing instructions do not do so, or when they are ambiguous, a boat may elect not to round a mark when she can still leave it on the required side and in the correct order. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 31 Jan 11 at 11:02pm
| Its an interesting point the passing mark thing. After a particularly awkward protest/unwise course setting incident last year we're considering putting in an SI that all marks are rounding marks unless defined otherwise on the course diagram. |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 31 Jan 11 at 11:48pm
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Did your incident illustrate a 'trap for young players' that would be useful to share with us all?
Wouldn't switching the default from non-rounding to rounding in the SI just cause the mirror image of the problem?
In my limited experience, problems of this kind are usually caused by:
Note that in Canada, setting a 'looping' mark is an improper action. See CYA Case 74. http://www.sailing.ca/images/uploads/CYA_Appeals_2009-12_01_November_2010.pdf - http://www.sailing.ca/images/uploads/CYA_Appeals_2009-12_01_November_2010.pdf
I think that exaggerates the danger, and would be impractical here in Sydney, where we have permanently laid racing marks, used simultaneously by numerous clubs, which the local maritime authority requires all be rounded to starboard.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Feb 11 at 12:21am
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Wind was shifting, and there had been several course changes on the beach while rigging. RO tried to set a "one of these will be a beat" course. The windward mark was originally stbd: once many people had launched it was changed again to port as per sketch, with black being the intended course. We don't use passing marks, so have no way of distinguishing passing marks from rounding marks on the CB.
Protest was about some sailors having missed the change from stbd to port rounding and rounding incorrectly, but once we analysed the situation we realised that blue was a legal course... 
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 01 Feb 11 at 4:15am
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I remember you told us before that at your club you do courses with a marks and a string on pegboard in the clubhouse.
Assuming that your SI say something like 'courses shall be as shown on the course board in the clubhouse', if the pegboard had an actual string touching the marks, that, in my opinion makes them rounding marks. No less so for a chalk line or whiteboard marker illustrating change of course at each mark. On that basis, Blue isn't the legal course.
Downside of your method, of course, is that it makes last-minute changes of course in response to wind shifts difficult.
If you always arrange things so that all marks are rounding marks, then the 'boats shall round marks in the order shown' or 'All marks shown in GREEN on the Course Board are to be rounded to Starboard and all marks shown in RED on the Course Board are to be rounded to PORT' should do the trick, although, as indicated, I don't think it is really necessary.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Feb 11 at 7:43am
Our opinion too! But if you have to change the course on the CB after sailors have launched then, but only then, its a problem if you manage to set a course with a problem like that one. Its a once every five years incident I guess, and only likely to happen if the RC is rushed trying to get the race off on time and deal with changing conditions, but still worth avoiding if you can do it without causing more problems than you solve. |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 01 Feb 11 at 3:27pm
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I think to settle this we need extracts from the SIs relating to how courses are announced and how course are shortened. How and where was the shortened course signalled. Any changes to standard procedure give rise to difficulties - usually because the drafting of such SIs produce unintended effects. Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: crosby mafia
Date Posted: 01 Feb 11 at 8:10pm
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mmmm I'll have to look at our SI's which were recently re written for our 2010 solo open. Nothing is ever simple is it. We actually hope to hold a racing rules evening, so will keep this quandry for that evening. Jim yes your superb drawing is correct the red was the one which should have been sailed. Green being what was sailed. The shorten procedure was, we have a floating white container which is painted up as the S flag, which is attached to the bouy ( we also flew the S flag from the club flagstaff on the start / finish line)( the distance is too far to be able to see the flag) and two sound signals as the leading boats approaches, and they make way to finish. Ian ------------- Better a crap day in Abersoch than any day at work. |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 02 Feb 11 at 9:19am
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If you have a RIB going to the mark to attach a floating container could they not drop of an appropriate mark to form a gate. SIs would then stipulate that boats must sail through the gate before sailing to the finish. This is a slight variant of Appendix L SI12.2 which is specifically drafted to deal with this problem. Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 02 Feb 11 at 11:00am
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We never did this sort of thing when my club had a club line. You either shortened the course at the end of the lap and used the club line, or parked in a rescue boat at a mark and finished there. ------------- Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile" |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 02 Feb 11 at 11:28am
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There are clubs and circumstances where this makes sense though. Frensham is one. I wouldn't want to have to do average lap sums though!
I think Gordon is right on the money: I hadn't heard of that but it makes complete sense. Drop your S flag mark separately as a gate rather than tie on the mark and then people can go either way. It also sounds like less trouble for the race crew as well to me, so a win/win. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 02 Feb 11 at 12:36pm
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[QUOTE=JimC]There are clubs and circumstances where this makes sense though. Frensham is one. I wouldn't want to have to do average lap sums though! QUOTE] Surely as soon as you shorten course at a point not a complete lap, all boats have to sail the same distance? Or was this your point?! We too set a boat at a mark to shorten mid lap, on the side that the boat would have passed anyway. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 02 Feb 11 at 3:06pm
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JimC, I did say a mark bearing the "appropriate flag". I would prefer S to be kept for the use as indicated in the rule book -finish between flag and nearby mark. We have used the V flag to say round this mark( or pass the gate) and sail to finish. Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: crosby mafia
Date Posted: 02 Feb 11 at 5:24pm
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I've checked our Si's and surprise surprise, I think we got it right. Its prescribed as per rule 32.2(a) so the mark is a "rounding mark". But I do like the idea of amending it to make a gate for the shorten course. Need to chat with the Sailing Sec and change the SI's. ------------- Better a crap day in Abersoch than any day at work. |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 02 Feb 11 at 5:31pm
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The advantage of making it a gate is that you eliminate both the problem of having to round a mark and cross the path on incoming boats AND you oblige boats to sail to the gate - they cannot cut corner leaving mark on the correct side (although a long way off). Gordon ------------- Gordon |