How easy is it to sail?
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Category: General
Forum Name: Choosing a boat
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URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7391
Printed Date: 07 Aug 25 at 10:37am
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Topic: How easy is it to sail?
Posted By: G.R.F.
Subject: How easy is it to sail?
Date Posted: 30 Nov 10 at 3:27pm
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Following on from the Musto thread I thought I'd challenge the forum knowledge base with a little categorisation of boats and how difficult we view them to sail for someone of shall we say what average ability.
Scale of 1 - 10.
I rated the RS100 4, then I'd put the RS500 at 5, the Blaze at 6, the Alto at 7, with the L3k at 8, Laser/Topper 9, Hobie Cat 10. Which is about the limit of what I've had a go in over the years
*Edit as per TT's list 1= Most difficult almost bloody impossible, MPS for me and probably Rs600 not that I'd know. 2 = Moth foiler thing (I'm guessing) 3 = RS 800 (only ever crewed it briefly) 4= RS100 5= RS500, 505 6= Blaze 7= Alto, 470 8=L3k 9=Laser/Topper 10= Hobie 14-16
Now this is just how difficult to sail, not sail well enough to win stuff, just to get it round a course in most winds from Bft1 to say 5.
If we got a consensus it could make a meaningful chart for newbies and maybe the rest of us when considering other stuff, like well, where would the Contender sit for example?
My guidelines are stuff like will it stand up on its own if you let go of it, how easy is it to get back into when it tips you out, how often does it just go into irons.. stuff like that.
And we should have no 'oh you're doing it wrong you have to rig it like this..' bollox
Just a basic what it does with minimum input, how easy is it..
It's a sail boat why won't it sail? Should not be a question we have to ask if it's in the 8 9 or 10 section
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Replies:
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 30 Nov 10 at 3:34pm
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Here TT's scale
Originally posted by turnturtle
ooh, interesting scale there... in my experience:
1 - Penny 14 (spent the whole time swimming and fixing it...) 2 - musto skiff / L5000 / 505 3- RS800 / RS600 4- RS300 5- RS100 / Laser 2 / Fireball / ISO 6- RS Vareo / Laser / 420 7- Phantom (but hard work) / National 12 (old knacker) 8- Topper / Optimist 10- Hobie Wave
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Interesting we're not that far apart although I've no idea what a Penny 14 is, obviously some mofo..
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Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 30 Nov 10 at 3:35pm
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I'd rate a 600 as a 2...your really can't stop sailing it - you can slow it down, but you can never really stop or it will just spin round and try and chuck you out.
A laser - something like a 7 in light winds - 4 in BF5 on the sea downwind
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Musto Skiff and Solo sailor
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Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 30 Nov 10 at 3:47pm
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depends on what you mean "easy to sail"...
If sinply getting from a-b without washing the sails; or "to get the most out of the boat and sail at the highest level"....
Not the same things IMO....
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Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 30 Nov 10 at 3:49pm
Of boats I've got reasonable recent time in...
One thing that complicates things is that if you have a top class crew on board then the difficulty of handling any two hander reduces spectacularly.
Int Moth 1
Int Canoe 2 (3 if you avoid F5 and over)
97 rules Cherub 2
Pole kite Cherub 2
RS600 2
84 rig asymmetric Cherub 3
RS300 3
29er 3
RS400 4
Laser 6
Vortex 6 (unless you try "wild thing" downhill!)
Enterprise 7
Topper 10
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Posted By: Andrewst
Date Posted: 30 Nov 10 at 3:55pm
Hi Grame you know what a penny 14 is. Think twin wire thing that improved Dan and my swimming.
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3000 3611 Chaos
B14 790
www.AllGoodFun.com - www.AllGoodFun.com
B14 709 For Sale
RS800 898 For Sale
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Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 30 Nov 10 at 3:58pm
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The hardest boat i have ever sailed was a Assy Canoe. Would love to give it a month though. 505 is an easy boat to actually sail, but hard to sail fast. 14's depend on the design i found the Morrison 12 near impossible in a F5 as a crew for a fairly tasty helm. The Solo is not an 'Easy' boat to sail in a blow, they can be a nightmare to gybe in big wind. The 300 is hard to just jump straight into as is the 600 IMO, but once you have some time onboard it gets easier.
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Posted By: radixon
Date Posted: 30 Nov 10 at 3:59pm
1- non foiling moth - I swam
2 - RS 700 - only ok in light winds
3 - RS 500/Buzz
4 - RS 400
5 - RS 200
6 - A BIG Gap, not sure what to put
7 - Laser / Stratos / vision etc
8 - Pico / Feva
9 - Wayfarer
10 - Topper
Not done loads of high performance stuff, but
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Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 30 Nov 10 at 3:59pm
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This is really good, why didn't we think of it earlier?
Criterior Simon is just Easy, get from A to B without washing the sails, A to B being typical say triangle sausage all points of sailing course and without having to have "pro" or "sailing deity" input.
Laser 2000 new one where would that rate 9?
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Posted By: Andrewst
Date Posted: 30 Nov 10 at 4:01pm
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1 - Penny 14 (spent the entire time swimming and then repacing miles of rope)
2 -
3- Cherub current rules(I am just far too heavy)
4- B14 (More of an issue with length and the waves at Hythe more like a 6 elsewhere)
5- RS100/RS800
6- 3000/Blaze/Alto (97 rules cherub)
7- Topaz RaceX/RS200/RS400
8- Topaz/ Laser 2000
10- Topper
It should probably be noted I crew so my view may be somewhat skewed
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3000 3611 Chaos
B14 790
www.AllGoodFun.com - www.AllGoodFun.com
B14 709 For Sale
RS800 898 For Sale
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Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 30 Nov 10 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by JimC
One thing that complicates things is that if you have a top class crew on board then the difficulty of handling any two hander reduces spectacularly.
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Yes very much agree on this.
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Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 30 Nov 10 at 4:55pm
Originally posted by turnturtle
and the inverse is very true... Russ states that a 505 is actually easy to sail... try taking out a newbie in one in a fresh breeze with a reasonable sea running- they'd sh*t the bed before they even got to sleep that night (and that's before having a recurring nightmare of you shouting at them about which f*cking red rope the twinner line is). |
Same could be said for just about any boat though!!
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Musto Skiff and Solo sailor
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Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 30 Nov 10 at 7:48pm
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Hmm think I'd sooner take an Alto out with an inexperienced crew than I would a Five oh, or RS500..
Then Again I bet one of those Vago things would probably be a cake walk
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Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 30 Nov 10 at 8:51pm
Jimbo in Graeme's criteria of sailing from A to B, the 505 is probably one of the most sea worthy stable platforms out there. I didn't think he meant racing, if that were the case then hell, a 505 is well up there. my point is that its a stable craft and can be simple to sail.
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Posted By: mattmd
Date Posted: 01 Dec 10 at 12:04am
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In regards to a Contender I'd put it somewhere like 3/4/5 as its harder than a 600 for sure. But not too nutty. However still requires a high level of skill and some fitness to get around the course, especially in windier weather
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Matt MD
Contender GBR-620
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Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 01 Dec 10 at 6:39am
Matt i really disagree with you on that one. Sure the Contender has its challenges (like boom limbo) but it is a much easier boat to just jump straight in and sail. Its relatively well mannered and stable both of which are attributes which make the boat such a joy
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Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 01 Dec 10 at 11:12am
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Osprey is a 10. Absolute piece of p*** to get around in (It has to be with me in it)
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Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 01 Dec 10 at 11:26am
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Pierre, you're probably right about the Osprey but for the sake of this assume total numpty never sailed much before, no idea about spinnaker poles what ropes do what, that sort of thing, think a jetskier or kitesurfer wanting to try taking his kid out in a sailboat.
As sailors you all have automatic senses you're all unaware you have, hence it's so complicated for others.
I'm trying to break this down into just ease and simplicity, which I guess the Topper or a Bic Open are the prime exmple of, then moving up the scale an L3k is easier and simpler than say the old money Laser two simply because pulling the kite up for example all happens with one string.
That in a way is why the MPS seemed so simple, technically its uncluttered by typical dinghy techno rope block clutter, so it appeared to be point and shoot.. Shame it wasn't.
I doubt I could get in an Osprey and even hoist the sails, certainly wouldn't know how to set the kite, now would I? I dare say it performs fabulously, I've seen them in action, great sea boats, wupped our Alto arse upwind, but you need to be a 'proper sailor whats been round the block' to make them work.
So I'd say an Osprey (without the benefit of even being in one would be further up the scale than say an L3k)
I need to define these categorys a bit better when I get a moment.
I can't accept a Contender is more difficult than a 600 again I don't know, I need that explaining to me why..
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Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 01 Dec 10 at 11:47am
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Adding simplicity is a tough one...The 600 is probably the most simple high-performance single hander you can buy and if you can keep it upright its the ultimate in point and shoot.
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Musto Skiff and Solo sailor
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Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 01 Dec 10 at 12:16pm
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If you let it go will it fall over? (Once it's off the launch trailer and afloat)
Seems to me to be one defining factor about wether a boat is easy to handle or not.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 01 Dec 10 at 12:40pm
I think you are right, GRF, the "will it fall over" test is an excellent one. And yes, a 600 falls over. Trouble is, the falling overness is also an indication of speed, most of the time.
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Dec 10 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by Rupert
I think you are right, GRF, the "will it fall over" test is an excellent one. |
Dunno, I've sailed boats that fall over in no wind with noone in them for years. Doesn't bother me. I just tie the shroud to the pontoon not the bow. I've watched boats of most classes fall over when left tied up at the bow anyway.
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Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 01 Dec 10 at 1:25pm
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Well we don't have any pontoon to tie them up to and if they do fall over, they then get potentially several tons of water trashing their sails or masts..
I've just lost my five points on what makes a boat 'easy' post.
Think it went 1)Not falling over 2)Rudder kicks up 3)Centreboard kicks up 4)Simple rigging & Controls 5)Assymettric single string hoist & pole.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 01 Dec 10 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.
Well we don't have any pontoon to tie them up to and if they do fall over, they then get potentially several tons of water trashing their sails or masts..
I've just lost my five points on what makes a boat 'easy' post.
Think it went 1)Not falling over 2)Rudder kicks up 3)Centreboard kicks up 4)Simple rigging & Controls 5)Assymettric single string hoist & pole.
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For a pond sailor, the list would probebly be different. For me, the falling over thing would be in there, not because it makes launching difficult (as Jim says, inland we have pontoons to tie to) but because it shows the boat has a basically unstable hullshape, so won't be "easy" to sail.
Lifting rudder might be in there, but inland, the daggerboard/centreboard thing makes little difference, mostly, and can be argued either way.
Simple rigging for me rules out having to put the sail in the mud and then lift the whole lot into the boat, Laser style.
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Dec 10 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.
Well we don't have any pontoon to tie them up to and if they do fall over, they then get potentially several tons of water trashing their sails or masts |
When I'm launching off a beach then I'm holding onto the boat so its not going to fall over anyway... I can't imagine ever wanting to let go because it will either blow out to sea or get blown onto the beach, and I relish neither... But then I will not sail on suicide shingle beaches. Once was enough.
I want nice simple daggerboard rudder and centreboard so I can get some foil down immediately, little worry about getting out there and finding the centreboard won't move because there's a stone stuck between it and the case and none of this messing about with strings to try and get the foils down ("no the green one, not that's blue, the other green one... back a bit there,. no, not there") or worse still those stupid strings on rudder blades so you have to try and steer and pull a rope in at the same time, then do up a cleat...
Then as far as single string systems are concerned, yes they are faster when all goes well, but I find the two string system safer when things are going wrong... It can be nice for novices to be able to get the pole in and the kite started down the chute before you drop the whole thing into the water.
I do agree with you on the simple controls though! The Laser is a classic example of how things can become stupidly complicated...
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Posted By: ham4sand
Date Posted: 01 Dec 10 at 3:25pm
mps is a 4 if a cherub is a 3
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John Hamilton
cherub 2645 - cheese before bedtime
cherub 3209 - anatidaephobia
laser 176847 - kiss this
[FORSALE]
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 01 Dec 10 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by ham4sand
mps is a 4 if a cherub is a 3 |
So an MPS is easier to sail than a Cherub?
I would tend to disagree although I have sailed neither. I quite fancy a crack in a Cherub if I ever get the opportunity but not a Musto.
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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74
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Posted By: ham4sand
Date Posted: 01 Dec 10 at 5:04pm
id say that the mps hurts more to start with, whilst the cherub still keeps surprising me even after sailing it for 2years
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John Hamilton
cherub 2645 - cheese before bedtime
cherub 3209 - anatidaephobia
laser 176847 - kiss this
[FORSALE]
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