Racing Rules: When is a start mark not a start mark?

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When is a start mark not a start mark?

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=735
Printed Date: 07 Aug 25 at 9:22pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com

Topic: When is a start mark not a start mark?

Posted By: Contender443
Subject: When is a start mark not a start mark?
Date Posted: 01 Jun 05 at 10:53am

A question for the rules experts out there.

At a recent club race we had an onshore wind so it was not possible to set a true start. Therefore we started on a close reach and headed off for the first mark where we hardened up onto a beat.

At the start I was on a direct line for the first mark from the start mark travelling at speed in my Contender (admittedly a couple of seconds late), when a laser and a 4.7 reached in and hardened up inside of me. I informed them they had no rights to water as it was the start mark.

After the race I challenged them about this. I was told that you are entitled to water at the start mark immediately after the start gun has gone because the start mark becomes a normal mark of the course after the start. Is this correct? If so then it is a charter to barge at start marks.

I thought it remains a start mark until you as a competitor have started and you have not started until you cross the line. Is this also correct?

By the way I forgot to shout protest so I could not protest after the race.

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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764

Replies:

Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 01 Jun 05 at 11:10am

Originally posted by Contender443

I was told that you are entitled to water at the start mark immediately after the start gun has gone because the start mark becomes a normal mark of the course after the start. Is this correct?

No, it is not correct. Rule 18 does not apply until the start mark has been passed. The timing vis-a-vis the start gun is irrelevant. Bargers don't get water until the start mark has been passed (after which, they wouldn't need it anyway). See RRS 18.1 a.

Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 01 Jun 05 at 11:18am

Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Yep, I agree. You should not have let him in.

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Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..

Posted By: maxim
Date Posted: 01 Jun 05 at 3:55pm

Yeah - otherwise it would defeat the object of some team racing tactics, where the time of you start dosn't matter so much as the order and positioning of the people - whatever the time (well- obviously after the gun...) Youv'e got to be able to 'close the gate' after the gun.

Posted By: john.d.knight
Date Posted: 01 Jun 05 at 4:17pm

Contender443

FYI

Rule 61.1 (a) (1)

if the other boat is beyond hailing distance, the protesting boat need not hail but she shall inform the other boat at the first reasonable opportunity;

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Pain is just weakness leaving the body.

Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 01 Jun 05 at 4:40pm

Couple of points.

Yes they were within hailing distance I asked them to do turns but I did not use the magic word protest - my fault.

I let them in to avoid a collision and minor contact was made.

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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764

Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 02 Jun 05 at 7:37am

Originally posted by Contender443

I asked them to do turns but I did not use the magic word protest

Red flag is also a requirement, although some SIs waive both requirements if the incident was "obvious". RRS 61.1.

Posted By: furtive
Date Posted: 02 Jun 05 at 10:30am

No red flag is required if you're boat is less than 6 metres long (as with this case).

Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 03 Jun 05 at 4:51pm

Several points. Although you don't have to give room at a starting mark you may have to observe a 'proper course' depending on how any overlap was established (and remember the anchor chain on the committee boat is still an obstruction). The've got rid of the red flag requirement 'which is good' because I could never find it in the bottom of the boat and I'm going to start just calling protest rather than ask for turns or try and explain the rules - that then leaves me with the option of protesting once I'm ashore. Finally its not always worth protesting or insisting on your rights but deliberate bargers should always be protested otherwise the sport will just go downhill with everyone breaking the rules more and more blatently.

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Garry

Lark 2252, Contender 298

www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk

Posted By: ChrisJ
Date Posted: 03 Jun 05 at 5:01pm

Is there still a rule about "not sailing above your proper course once the start gun has gone"?

This doesn't really apply on a normal windward course - as pinching like mad is a good proper course to get clear wind from the boats ahead. But if you are close reaching to the first mark, there might be a case for not sailing too far above the next mark in order to stop people at the start mark.

Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 03 Jun 05 at 5:29pm

Originally posted by Garry

Although you don't have to give room at a starting mark you may have to observe a 'proper course' depending on how any overlap was established

All that stuff goes out of the window inside the 2BL circle and rule 18 takes over. See RRS 18.1.

Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 03 Jun 05 at 5:34pm

Originally posted by ChrisJ

Is there still a rule about "not sailing above your proper course once the start gun has gone"?.

No. The only limitation I can think of stopping you sailing above you proper course is 17.1 which stops a boat overtaking from astern and then luffing above proper course. However inside the 2BL circle, rule 18 takes over anyway.

Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 03 Jun 05 at 7:29pm

Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Originally posted by ChrisJ

Is there still a rule about "not sailing above your proper course once the start gun has gone"?.

Rule 18 does not apply at a starting mark surrounded by navigable water see 18.1(a). Is this misconception about 2BL at starting marks what causes all the problem on the water?

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Garry

Lark 2252, Contender 298

www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk

Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 04 Jun 05 at 7:12am

You are quite right and that is what I said in the first place. However last night I seemed to have a blond moment about it. Or a senior moment. I just about qualify to have both.