Correct course to sail?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7011
Printed Date: 08 Aug 25 at 2:12pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Correct course to sail?
Posted By: ohFFsake
Subject: Correct course to sail?
Date Posted: 07 Aug 10 at 11:25pm
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A strange situation cropped up in a recent race at our local club, regarding the interpretation of rounding a mark.
Here's a variation of the course which illustrates the point of contention. The OD sets the following course (see diagram) (START) 1-S 2-S 3-S 4-S 5-P (FINISH) 
What does a boat need to do at marks 2 and 4 in order to correctly comply with the stated course? |
Replies:
Posted By: Sailing4Life
Date Posted: 07 Aug 10 at 11:46pm
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To me with the diagram you have drawn and the instructions
you have given I would leave mark 5 to port and that would be it. You leave mark 1,2,3,4 to starboard which means as long as they are on your right your good. ------------- Rs600 + many others |
Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 08 Aug 10 at 12:13am
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That's what I thought.
However to satisfy rule 28.1(b) it would appear that the only correct interpretation would be to do a 360 degree clockwise turn around marks 2 and 4. Otherwise the notional piece of string fails to touch the mark |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 08 Aug 10 at 1:31am
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Depends if the course STATES round the mark to S; or MARK to S; If rounding; you might have a point as because of the shape of the course and the fact you are expected to ROUND the mark; then string must pull taught and TOUCH. If the course states pass the mark to stbd then the string does not need to TOUCH. From: http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RRS20092012with2010changes-8222.pdf - http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RRS20092012with2010ch anges-[8222].pdf
28 SAILING THE COURSE 28.1 A boat shall start, leave each mark on the required side in the correctorder, and finish, so that a string representing her track after startingand until finishing would when drawn taut(a) pass each mark on the required side,(b) touch each rounding mark, and(c) pass between the marks of a gate from the direction of the previousmark .She may correct any errors to comply with this rule. After finishingshe need not cross the finishing line completely. ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 Aug 10 at 5:51am
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Appendix L of the rules*, the guide to SIs is the place that talks about differentiating rounding marks from others. Basically the SIs should distinguish between rounding marks and non-rounding marks unless its obvious. To my mind though this course is unnecessary complication. Bearing in mind the area you've drawn then none of the marks except maybe 5 add anything much to the game at all unless there's strong current...
*not a place you'd ordinarily spend much time looking at! |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 08 Aug 10 at 9:27am
| AFAIK all marks are for rounding unless stated otherwise. Unless there is either a course diagram showing that the intermediate marks are passing marks or a statement in the SIs to that effect, the marks need to be looped, which presumably wasn't the ROs intention. We commonly set passing marks at my club and the course list states any marks which are passing. |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 08 Aug 10 at 10:51pm
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Stefan, It is the other way round; All marks are passing marks unless it is specified that they are rounding marks. Boats are required to pass all marks on the required side, the "string" is only required to touch marks specified as rounding marks (see RYA1985/4). The SIs must clearly identify rounding marks. It is possible that you have local SIs that specify that all marks are rounding marks but the RRS certainly do not. Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 08 Aug 10 at 11:23pm
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Thanks for everyone's comments and thoughts about this.
Gordon, your definition actually seems to follow the logic I'd have expected in the first place, but can you give me a reference to where in the RRS it corroborates your statement that all marks are assumed to be passing marks unless defined as rounding marks? The exact situation in our case is that 3 marks were defined as in 3,4,5 above. I chose to go straight from 3 to 5, on the basis that I thus passed the correct side of 4. I won the race but a week later our sailing secretary came across rule 28.1b and retrospectively DSQ'd us! Thus it would please me greatly to find we were in the right all along! |
Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 08 Aug 10 at 11:58pm
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Ah, just found the case you quoted:
RYA 1985/4 When a race committee intends a mark to be looped, the mark must be identified as a rounding mark. When the sailing instructions do not do so, or when they are ambiguous, a boat may elect not to round a mark when she can still leave it on the required side and in the correct order. Seems pretty definitive... 
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 09 Aug 10 at 2:18am
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Just a quibble, there is a difference between 'specified' and 'identified'. Marks in a conventional triangle or WL sausage course will be sufficiently identified as rounding marks without spelling it out in words. The most usual way SI inadvertently make marks into rounding marks is with a statement like 'All marks shall be rounded on the side shown ...', or 'boats must round each mark ...'. |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 10 Aug 10 at 12:58pm
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2 points: - ohFFsake should immediately request redress. The sailing secretary has no right to disqualify you under RRS 28.1. Only the protest committee may do that. And a week later will almost certainly outside the time limit for a protest; - Brass : the marks in a conventional triangular or WL course see Appendix L addendum A) are NOT rounding marks, unless the SIs say so. Considr what happens if there is a major windshift. Boats are under no obligation to sail to the next mark and loop it if they can sail to the mark after next (following a change of course) leaving the next mark on the required side. Which is why the sagacious Race Officer will use appendix L 12.2 which obliges boats to sail between the mark and the boat signalling the change of course. A pedantic point but one that can cause chaos on a race course, especially hre in Dublin Bay where 180° windshifts are not unknown Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 11 Aug 10 at 1:39am
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But I'm afraid that the time taken from when the 'facts are known' (RYA Appeal 89/9) until FFSake obtains advice from this forum, then submits a request for redress would likewise be outside the protest time limit and beyond the reasonable time that the protest committee should extend to. Case 102 says you can't delay a request for redress until you know the effect it will have on your series place: all the moreso, you can't delay your request until you have consulted Gordon on the internet <g>.
What I meant was that each of the diagrams in Addendum A, identify each mark as a rounding mark (geometrically, to be rounded at a reflex angle).
Is the counter example you are suggesting where, on a triangle course, the RC shifts the Windward mark so far to the left that it becomes to leeward of the Wing mark, without shifting the Wing to maintain configuration?
In that case I agree that Leeward - Windward then Leeward would leave Wing on the required side, and no requirement to loop Wing can be implied, but I don't agree that this would be a 'conventional' triangle. |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 11 Aug 10 at 9:17am
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Brass, 1. I agree with you about the time limit, However, the reasonable time in this instance would be when competitor learns that sailing secretary has made an improper action. If the change to the boat's score was made a week or two after the race I would allow any request for redress more than the statutory 2 hours... 2 Just because a diagram shows that marks are to be passed at a reflex angle doesn't make them rounding marks. If you read Appendix L attentively - L8.1 defines the order in which marks are to be PASSED, and the side on which each mark is to be left.L9.2 defines which marks are rounding marks. If L9.2 or similar is not used then the diagrams in Add A only show passing marks. If there is a windshift so far to the right that boats are reaching to the windward leg a,d the leeward mark is then set down wind of windward mark, boats rounding old leeward mark can sail direct to new leeward mark and still leave windward mark (and wing) on required side. if there is no requirement to sail between mark and boat signalling change of course Some figures : Original wind 0° New wind 90° Course from original leeward mark to windward mark 0° Course from windward mark to new leeward mark 90° A course of approx 45° from original leeward mark to new leeward mark leaves both windward mark and wing (if there is one) on required side! Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 12 Aug 10 at 1:28am
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I agree.
I disagree. The drafting note to L9.2 says 'Unless it is clear from the course diagrams list the marks that are rounding marks' I understand this to mean that if it is clear from the course diagrams that marks are rounding marks then that is what they are, without the need to say so in words in L9.2.
I have difficulty following your example. If wind changes from 000 degrees to 090 degrees, and RC moves the Leeward mark to be dead downwind of the Windward mark, then course from Windward to new Leeward mark is going to be 270 degrees not 090 degrees. Once the RC moves the Leeward mark from its old position to a new position West and downwind of the Windward mark, how is the old position of the leeward mark relevant? The way I see it is that for any of the courses pictured in Addendmum A, marks are all geometrically rounding marks, unless the RC moves one mark and does not move others to maintain the course shape. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Aug 10 at 8:23am
Right on line with Brass on this one... we do our courses with a marks and a string on pegboard in the clubhouse, so its pretty difficult to stuff up, but I suggest the crucial thing that was wrong with the original course diagram shown was the lack of a track... So the lesson there for any RC is always to include the string track on your course diagram, then if the track touches the mark on the far side its rounding, and if it goes past without touching its not... |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 12 Aug 10 at 9:47am
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Brass, OOPs, should have said new wind 270° - now work through the example... no need to go to windward mark! App L8.1 defines order that marks are to be passed. The whole point about the courses in App is that they are approximate diagrams, and are subject to change during the race. When there is a change of course there are circumstances in which boats can comply with rule 28.1 without sailing to the mark that starts the leg that has been changed. Which is why App L provides clear and unambiguous propositions to deal with the problem L9.2 which allow you to define which are the marks to be rounded L9.5 which defines the boat signaing change of course as a mark L12.2 which introduces an obligation to pass through gate between boat signalling change of course and nearby mark. Using a line to define a fixed course round fixed marks can make it clear that marks are rounding marks (I would argue that it is always best to define such marks in writing), however " The identification of a mark as a rounding mark must be unambiguous. For instance, to state that a mark is to be left to prot (or starboard) gives a boat the option not to round it" (RYA 1985/4). The identification of marls in App L Add A as rounding marks is not unambiguous. Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Aug 10 at 10:08am
I don't think there's any doubt that a sufficiently determined RC can stuff up almost anything: as the saying goes, its hard to make anything foolproof because fools are so very ingenious... |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Aug 10 at 7:48pm
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The other reason for an RO to draw round the marks (or tie string) is that errors will then be easier for him or her to spot. Most sailors would be amazed to find out that there are 2 ways of going round a mark defined somewhere in the depths of the rules. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |