Check out the Scottish skiff racing results from Helensburgh SC at the weekend.

http://www.scottishskiffracing.com/HelensburghResultsApril05.htm - http://www.scottishskiffracing.com/HelensburghResultsApril05 .htm

So in Scotland they include the Vortex as a skiff - interesting concept as nobody can decide if it is a cat or a dinghy. (That is not an invitation to start that discussion again!!!!)

Why is it included in skiff racing in Scotland?

Right - I used to race cherubs, but now have a 49er. I am selling the 49er coz it just doesnt compare to a 12footer! You have to try it! The 9er has awesum power, but all you do is sit on the wire and push it - its stupidly forgiving and as tim said, no sence of speed - so unless your sailing against other 9ers, you dont know if youve maxed out or not! where as a cherub is so light and nimble you know when you are going fast or slow, you actually feel what the boat is doing. Speed wise, in say F5 with kites - cherubs can pull away from Int 14's, 49ers (which only need 85% of an 18footers power to match speed) so really, in these conditions cherubs are the 'best' - but then upwind they generally get peeved on!

My bro has a B14 - Its a nice sit on boat, good upwind and for pointing ability - but no good in handicap racing as shes too over powered and has to spill in a F3 + - this is when I used to skip by in my cherub! Dont even get me started on a vortex - not even a boat! Its a pants cat, and a pants monohull- it has its uses, but it cant be classed as a skiff! Thats like sayin the laser funboat is a skiff?!?!?!?

Why is it that the UK 9er and RS sailors dont seem to have any perspective on the outside world of sailing? Think it was Jim before who mentioned the 16footer - this is anoter mental craft! Or there is the Libera C class..................

All im getting at is that you cant nok it til youve tried it! Ive been around a bit in the sailing world - and im still coming back to cherubs, what can that say!

can people start puting arsam skiff pikes on hear pleas

no cats

Anyone that has sailed an 18 foot skiff would surely say the 18footer is the best.

Yeh I hear all the crew problems and stuff but for outright awesome sailing the 18foot Skiff has to be the one.

And that coming from a moth sailor!

here here.

Both upwind and downwind!

yer but  if you think all they are is a step up from the 49er

or may by more of a leap

The small rig on the 18 doesn't seem too much bigger than the 49ers. Take away from an 18 one crew, about 2 feet a small bit of sail and a bit of width and it makes things really interesting, and I think that's the original concept Julian Bethwaite had? Small 18 rig on a 49er would be interesting. The 16ft skiffs have very similar rigs to the 49er, I think I even remember something about the 49er rig being a development of a 16 rig and heard of the 16 guys using 49er rigs. They get a little bit more sail area than we do, but "cheat" by having an extra crew. Plus, I think the 49er is nicer looking boat.

23+knots!!! I don't think so, you wouldn't be able to tack the boat in over 20knots with the big rig, most people change at around 16 knots. On a 49er they fully powered up in around 8 knots depending on weight, and they start to depower in over 12 so 16 knots to change to the small rig on a 18footer would make sense.

There can be no best skiff as each skiff suits different people and different conditions!

Jus had a word from a friend of mine - he came 12ft sailing in a F5 a while back and was 'scared' apparently! Anywho - he went 18ft skiff sailing at the weekend in a F6, and then a F8 kicked in and they broke the mast foot - the mast went thru the bottom of the boat and it sank - a bit embarassing admidatly, but he said that even that was not as scary as mincing it downwind in the cherub! haha - i had a chuckle at that!

Its gota be tried - 12footers that is! sinking jus really isnt much fun.............

If we are talking about the best skiff we have to ask the question what is the point of a skiff?

The cat is more efficient hydrodynamicaly, eisily driven hulls and loads of righting moment,

The Windsurfer is more efficient in materials one bloke one sail all less than 10Kg

they both go faster than just about any skiff and that is without foiling like a moth!

If everybody comes in after sailing with a story and a smile that is a sign of a good skiff class.

I've sailed 12 14 and 18's and they are all different. 

The Grand Prix 18's were awsome, upwind nothing came close but your were a bit removed from the action being out on the wings, I don't think the current 18's are as good but there are more of them

The 14 was great upwind, even better now, but boring downwind, but I gather better now than before

The 12 is not so much fun upwind but nothing comes close to it downwind, not speedwise but fun and technique testing. Try gybing in 30 knots and big waves with a 300sqft kite

You will find though most real skiff classes as compared to the SMOD have people that have sailed them for 20-30 years, as the sign of a skiff is that the boats are always evolving and the 12 I sailed 20 years ago is nothing like what I am sailing now.

the helm has a lot of mental work to do whereas the crews role is more a physical one.

its like a light wind race is ofter more exausting than when its blowing old boots.

As I think was said in a prevous thread..........

If you can call it a skiff at Belmont Skiff Club (Sydney) and walk out without a broken nose......  Then it is a skiff.  49er, Cherub, B14 and RS boats ect you had better be quick on your feet at Belmont.

I understand that the Northern Hemisphere have a different view on what a skiff is but in the eyes of OZ and NZ, unless you have seen and sailed a skiff, you just don't understand what a skiff is.

Flame away guys.

Best skiff.......

12 footer (not cherub) - is the craziest

18 footer - fastest and most power.

16 footer - best class racing local.

14 footer - best international racing.

This is currnetly being discused on Sailing Anarchy.  Check out this link and below is my latest post.

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=21395&st=50 - http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=213 95&st=50

For me, a skiff is ONLY one of the home grown 12, 14, 16 or 18s modern and Historical. (also historical 6,8 and 10 footers)

A 49er is called a 49er

A Cherub is called a cherub.

What do you call a 12 foot skiff if you don't call it a skiff?????

49er, UK Cherub, RS800 may be skiff like in performance but I don't believe they should be called skiffs.  Skiff like but not skiff.

For me skiffs are all about Sydney Harbour and Brisbane River, clubs filled with pokies, paid crews, spectator fairies, heavy drinking and late starts to accommodate , raw uncompromising men (that’ll knock you on the head if you try and call a 49er a Skiff), boat advertising, no sail numbers, non ISAF recognised, class off their own.

Would like to here more thoughts from some of the Aussie skiff guys.

Hi Jack,

R Class…..  Will have to find out more about the history of this class.  New Zealand based class.  Looks like either they separated from the 12s and have a lot more restrictions or the 12’ skiffs separated from the R Class creating an ‘Outlaw class”

3.7 Skiff….  What…..  Should never use metric in boating   Just not cool.

As far as the UK Cherub.  They are moving closer and closer towards the 12’ skiff.  Why did they not just dump the Cherub name and adopt the 12 skiff or R class Rules.  Too big of a jump to quick I guess.  Also I'd imagine a lot of class pride.  Anyway the UK and AUS Cherub can race as a 12’ skiff in any event ( non ISAF aproved) including a 12’ skiff event as with most 12 dinghy classes.  They will however be disadvantaged.

I guess you have to grow up in with the Aussie skiff scene to understand. No offence to other classes but …..  To most AUS / NZ skiffies, the term skiff refers to a name of boat and its culture and not just to describe the sailing characteristics of a class that already has a name.

Cheers

-------------

http://www.formula18alive.com - www.formula18alive.com

ALL SKIFF CLASSES have tradition somthing that CANNOT BE BOUGHT, its created over many years.

Did you know there were also MODEL skiffs, every thing from 6 inches upto 2 feet and "full size" skiffs from 6ft to 24ft? Lets see Julian Beithwatie create this kind of history since 1860 thats right 1860 well before carbon aluminum stainless steel and EPOXY so classes like 49er B14 etc were never able to be created.

Skiffs started out as a rebelous type of racing particulary after the formation of the Sydney Flying Squadron where as 49er etc are part of the establishment and their class is called a skiff? Ask any old time skiffie about if a 49er is a skiff you will either get carried out of the club posibly unconus.

I would say ot be classed as a skiff you must meet most if not all of the following points.

1.History, can your class point to a history of development under its own name as a class not as a couple of prototypes?

2. Are you accepted by the establishment?

3. Do you embrace the "high performance" eithos?

4. Do you have to build it yourself, have it customade?

5. Very few rules? I know that in rescent times both the 16 and 18 have lost this, pity realy

6. NO SAIL NUMBERS. sorry to the 14 blokes

7. Have or did have a feeder system, for new blood into the class, that WASN'T created by the company building the boat?

So what do I think? 12s, 16s, 18s, and australian 14 are all skiffs.

The 29er, NO way

The 49er,  See above

B14, geting closer at lest NOT one sail design

Australian Cherub, complise with 1 and 4

UK Cherub, complises with 1, 2, 3, 4. from what i can see

Also could be included in this is the int moth with complises with 1, 3, 4, 5 and to a greater or lesser extent 2.

I'm now sitting back for sombody to prove me wrong.

At the end of the day if your class can compliy with this list or think of any other points please let me know.

You are all arguing about boats being skiff's or not, all it is, is a name, if you wish to call your boat a skiff just because it sounds good and you think it is a skiff, fine, does that really matter.

You SHOULD buy a boat becuase you like/enjoy its performance/looks and some people/manufacturers just call their boats a skiff just becuase it is fast and it sounds 'macho' to own a skiff and may boost sales (i think this is sad, you shouldnt buy a boat 'cos its a skiff, it should be because of the factors above)!

If no one can settle on what a skiff actually is and which boats fall into that category, just disagree! The RYA have described their definition of a skiff which is most likely what a skiff is!

'a boat which has the ability to plane up and downwind which alos has the use of significant righting moment e.g. racks, trapeze or both'

So if your boat falls into that category, i guess its a skiff, and if it doesnt SORRY but it isnt!

Most of all DOES IT MATTER?

Sorry 2 should have been the other way around.

There is no such thing as skiff type,either you are or you wish to be associated with us!!

Laser 2 cannot comply with any of the above.

aust cherub is not a skiff in the true sense but a feeder class to other more powerful skiff classes.

29er, 49er cannot comply with any of the above as,

1 strict ONE design

2 well accepted by the establishment (Olympics)

3 history nil before mid 1990's

4 NOT ALLOWED TO DEVELOP unless approved by the Beithwatie, etc.marketing machine.

5. 49er was developed from the 18 "Prime" 2 handed 18ft Skiff

skiffs have always developed the OLD/ original 18 rule were.

a race starts a 2pm

b boat must have "colour patch" on sail

c boat on waterline to be 18ft

d there is no d

ABOVE ALL IS YOUR CLASS NAME 49er Skiff, B14 Skiff, RS 400 Skiff etc. no they are 49er B14 RS400. Musto Skiff, we don't get them down here?

I wish/ demand that marketing machines give back the name SKIFF to the people who started all this "NO LIMITS SAILING".

refer my previous post there should be a futher point

8. no ideal crew size/ combination.

the ideal in a 49er for example is extra tall 6ft+ due to the weight equalization rules. example Adrienne Cahalan steered 12s and then 18s she only small 65-70 and about 5'7" and competitve.

I'm glad somone started this cause I was getting a bit peved at all this 49er "skiff" type crap

Lastly we don't call a 49er a skiff there a 49er... end of story.

Yes some of it is a marketing machine.

Who remember the 125'? AC Kiwi yacht could cirtinally comply with signficant righting moment, lage wings and huge crew.

Is it a melges 30? has wings and about 7? crew all on trap? then acording to this its a skiff.

Does it matter, F^&$%g oath it does, it would be like calling a robin reliant(that funny three wheeled Car) a sports car cause it has TWO doors and "stripped out"

So anyway...... they are just rowing boats with sails on.....

Skiff/skif/n. A rowing boat or sculling boat, of wood; that can be propelled by one person (single), or two (doubles), rowing one pair of oars (blades) per person. Can be used for leisure outings and for competitive racing.

Appeared on the Thames over 150 years ago.

I think that about does it.  Thankyou and good night

Originally posted by Wave Rider Yeah i forgot about rowing skiff's hmm do they plane upwind and downwind

They don't need to: something that long and skinny can exceed its hull speed without planing, just like cats do.

If so then ALL SAILING boats are not skiffs but also still says that 49er etc is STILL NOT A SKIFF.

The Australian Skiffs were descended from" work boats" payed per load, that started out by being rowed. These were then converted to sailing boats to the skiff as seen today. So using your definition no we are not skiffs without the above knowledge , However we are a development of them, therefore a true skiff.

Using this development then a sailing boat whose design can be DIRECTLY traced back to your definition of a skiff then must be a skiff

You can also follow this discussion on Sailing Anarchy

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=21395&st=0 - http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=213 95&st=0

The thread begins to talk about what is and is not a skiff at the 35th post by Chris 249, posted on Aug 2 2005, 12:55 AM

And that would be GAME, SET and MATCH

49er is the best boat ever!!!

Yup I think that pretty much sums it all up.  The history is the same, with Thames Skiffs deriving from the Thames Wherry work boats.

Well done Skiffie, I'm with you on this one mate.

Game Set and not a 49er

Except that clearly the 49er traces its lineage back to the Prime 18 footer...is that not a direct route back to the original?

I expect they can, but not to Thames Skiffs.

and Thames Skiffs are relevent because they are?

Sorry Granite, I was just getting skiff oriented.  You are right.

or the answer could be yes.

Pity then its not 18 feet long 26 feet wide with unlimited sail area like the "Prime". Make that "one design" and then you could trace it back.

Its like saying a Mirror is a development of a Heron, similar yet different.

History of Austalian 12' Skiff

http://www.skiff.org.au/history.htm - http://www.skiff.org.au/history.htm

Below are classic 12' skiffs

History of Austalian 16' Skiff

http://www.manlyskiff.com.au/aust16hist.htm - http://www.manlyskiff.com.au/aust16hist.htm

History of Austalian 18' Skiff

http://www.18footers.com.au/af/historical.asp - http://www.18footers.com.au/af/historical.asp

Below are some classic 18s

Historics racing today on Sydney Harbour

TOO TRUE, look at the Europe dingy, and a moth from 1950's, i think you will find they  were much the same. One design is like a time warp back to the year of the design being finalised, ie 49er 1995/96 with a mast update after the 2000 Olympics to Glass, I don,t even think full carbon / part carbon.

Don't get me wrong "one design" has its place, for people who sail with their CHEQUE BOOK where you can only BUY crap parts, look at those crap traveller blocks on the Lazar, and where in the last FIVE years the BIGGEST thing in ONE DESIGN was all those new fangled block on the Lazar. Hadn't the Lazar people herd of blocks, yes we can ALL tie knots but there are things that are so much better.

SKIFFS are Skiffs, WANT-A-BE SKIFFS WILL STILL BE WANT-A-BE SKIFFS

At the end of the day true skiffs are 12s Australians 14s 16s 18s, and there are a very few exceptions from this that can be included, basically meet the 7 or 8 criteria listed by me earlier and then you could be called "Skiff like"

The 13ft skiff promoted by the Australian 16s is a FEEDER class to the 16. In essence give good young guys a paid for new boat and keep them in the Skiff family, ie NOT Beithwaties

Most of the Overseas sailors wouldn't know this but when the 12ft SKIFF Interdomions were held in Auckland in 2000, during the Americas Cup, that small boat race, that on the lay days the AC blokes were out watching us, and using OUR ideas into their AC boats, so the next time someone says that TRUE SKIFFS are not HI TECH, read above.

Class rules; would you like to read the 12ft class rules; 3 pages

http://www.skiff.org.au/images/pdf/NSW12ft_skiff_measurement_rules.pdf - http://www.skiff.org.au/images/pdf/NSW12ft_skiff_measurement _rules.pdf

or the international Moth apart from the sail measuments less than one page.

http://www.moth-sailing.org/constitution.html - http://www.moth-sailing.org/constitution.html

or the Musto Peforance Skiff Rules; 6 Pages

http://www.mustoskiff.com/downloads/MPS-Class-Rules-Version-3.5.pdf - http://www.mustoskiff.com/downloads/MPS-Class-Rules-Version- 3.5.pdf

these include that you cannot drill extra holes in your boat and not permited to pruchase a companate that is not the part as "approved" by the MPS class?????

or the 49er Rules; 10 Pages

http://www.49er.org/getFile.asp?FC_ID=12&docID=139 - http://www.49er.org/getFile.asp?FC_ID=12&docID=139

I'm sure if I had read this it would say much the same as the MPS

or the RS class

well we all could however YOU have to be a MEMBER maybe RS stands for something that the designed didn't think off Rats$#t.

And lastly the laser, well I couldn't find them but i'm sure just as complex as the non skiff classes.

Definitely a case there of too many rules spoil the boat...and the fact that the class seems to add even more complicated rules to stop people trying to get around the already complicated ones in the first place.

Almost makes the 29 pages for the 16 foot skiff look like light reading

http://www.skiffs.org.au/Rules/Class%20Design%20Rules%20Working%20Copy.doc - http://www.skiffs.org.au/Rules/Class%20Design%20Rules%20Work ing%20Copy.doc

NOTE:                The following materials have been deemed as prohibited for the purposes of this Rule:-

(a)            Titanium, titanium alloys, titanium oxide and carbon fibre are excluded from use in spars.

Not sure if a class which has a rule

2.4 Where a person proposes to build a skiff which:

(a) incorporates a design feature of the hull not expressly specified in the template drawings plans; or

(b) proposes using a material in the construction of a:

(i) hull; or

(ii) spar or

(iii) sail; or

(iv) centreboard; or

(v) rudder

not currently in use in skiffs already racing; then

(c) the owner must seek the approval of the Specifications Committee of the Australian Association before constructing the skiff.

can be described as a development class

When is a skiff not a skiff?

Hypothetical scenario – One builder of I14s develops a dominant design and lots of boats are sold.
Builder spots a marketing opportunity and sets up a smod class association and starts organising events for their particular boats.

So according to the rules of the skiff when the boat is sailing in a class race it’s not a skiff, because no development is allowed, but when sailing in an I14 race it’s a skiff.

If I produce a one design based on the norfolk punt, will the "punt" name start being mis-used so much? I'm pretty sure all the boats you are talking about are "dinghies". Some are faster "dinghies" than others, and some come from roots which mean thay are classes called "18 foot skiff", or the like. Designers of fast "dinghies" have based their ideas on these boats, and therefore they are "skiff like" I suppose, but surely this is like saying the Comet Duo and Graduate  are "Firefly like". It doesn't mean you start describing all 2 sailed 12 foot boats as "fireflies" does it?

bloody pop-up blocker just lost my post.

It was about 500 words can't believe.

Oh well in short 16's in reply to granite are trying to keep costs down bearing in mind a new one can cost between $35,000 and $50,000 depending on how much work you do yourself.

So you are right when you say it can't call itself a true development class.

Once you have setup your new "xyz" one design class within the I14 rules, all it will take is the next NEW faster design to make it obsolete. Take for example the beirker? hull in the I14 then every thing pre 2000 is to slow to compete in the I14 and the new class has to the go it alone.

I'm sure the I14 etc. classes wouldn't support a one design class racing within it due to the attempt of stifling development of the class.

The blokes saying that they don't "get" Aussie skiffs, should either;

1. get an understanding by either talking to us when downunder or the UK Cherub blokes

2. stop calling YOUR boats "skiffs", you admit that you don't understand what they are so how can you call your boat something that YOU clearly DON'T understand

I don't call your boats "punts" or any other name because apart form the Aussie designed boats, 49er, B14 etc I haven't a great idea about the boats you sail up there.