I think the vago would probably be quite roomy. 4 metres 20, with an inverted vang thing, and a center-board not dagger board. All these create space, and it's not your typical laser 2 style 'sit in a hole', but designed with proper gunales, it looked quite comfortable.

I think it will be quite a useful and succesful boat. As for sail area, talking to the guy at the boat show, who was not small (if you know what I mean), he and a mate were planing very quickly, and moving much fater than expected (and it has the choice of varios sail combanations). With an aesymetric and trapeze, certainly a step up from Picos, Oppys and Mirrors...

However, I want to see more of it on the water - coming soon I think...

Hi Dino,

Last year our club bought 6 new Fevas for the junior training scheme. At the same time we got a Vision to be included in the discount. It has suited our needs very well and is still in excellent condition after one season of intensive use. Due to the GNAV it has stacks of room in the boat for and instructor and two adults. It is easily maintained because of the plastic hull and performance wise it beats Laser 2000s around the course.

Downsides include the size of centreboard case, very wide slot. the board tends to move quite a bit but I think latter versions have had adjustments to compensate for this. The controls are simple which is very good for a teaching boat, but if you race it then you can't easily adjust your sail settings. The 2000 with its control lines leading to the helm would be better. However we didn't want the expense of a 2000 and a GRP boat to get bashed around as a training boat.

I prefer the shape of the Vision to the Omega and whilst the freeboard is quite large, less mobile people have to get in over the transom. The Omega is even bigger. I haven't sailied the Omega or the Vago but as a training boat I do recommend the plastic variety for beginners, for the piece of mind of the club or training centre.

For your more advanced sailors I would go for an RS 200 as it beats the 2000 hands down for performance and fun, and its lighter to pull up the beach or slip way. The Vision weighs about the same as the 2000. But if you want a boat for shear joy, blistering pace and relatively easy to sail for you expert sailors at the club.... B14 except no substitute.

On a serious note, if you do go for the Vision ask them to put crinkles in the main for reefing as the zipped up foot is great when you're in the dinghy park and looks really neat whilst sailing. Its impossible for reefing afloat.

I have been very impressed with the Vision on a whole as our adult training boat and would recommend it as an affordable introduction to sailing which allows the teaching of all of the modules in the National Training Scheme with the exception of High Performance. I hope this helps.

The Vago will rule itself out of selection purely because of the order backlog, i.e. order now and it will be some time after October before you get delivery, otherwise it looks to be a very good replacement for the Laser 3000, more stable, more space with a gnav instead of a vang.

One thing that you have to remember about these kinds of boats, they are aimed at introductory levels of sailing, day sailing and general learning. However every boat is given a handicap in order to join in with club racing and open events. Okay handicap sailing has its problems and people love excuses to loose races like it wasn't the right wind or the boat doesn't like waves etc the list is endless..but it does get people on the water and involved with the sport. We need to encourage everyone who wants to have a go to actually have a go. Last year with no regular crew, as my plan was to introduce as many people to sailing as I could, I won three series in the Vision.

There aren't that many boats that you can go out in all weathers with a novice crew who's never even heard of an asymetric spinaker get the kite up and sceam of downwind with such a degree of stability that the novice gets hooked on sailing and signs the membership forms as soon as you get ashore. During strong wind races we were clocked at sixteen knots and beat 200's (sailed well) around the course. Plus thanks to all the time I put into sailing the Vision and getting used to asymetrics last year has paid dividends with my new boat. Meaning I get to spend the majority of the time sailing it rather than righting it.

it's all about time on the water

dude it definately sounds like your club needs Visions. They are perfect balance between performance and ease. They do everything and plenty of people are racing them down our neck of the woods.

The guy going on about class assoc might havwe forgotten that the class is only a year old. Its obviously gonna get one! RS won't miss a trick like that

hi dino

I definatly would go for the vision, the omega has a Huge rig and is very clumbersome if the wind gets up. i sailed one in 10knts and we had half the main flogging, our crew wieght was 24 stones!!!!!!!

I cant really coment on the vago or the vision but i would personally go for the vision.

I TOTALLY AGRE

Two omegas at our club were sailed this wednesday in a force 5-6 and were being bown over with 4 people in them!

The vision seems a lot more responsive, I haven't sailed one but it sounds a lot like a laser 2000 which is a great boat.

Go for the Vision 

i did but it was ina force 4-5 and they didnt have the jib out and they are not rlly very good sailors but it just makes me look good (not saying im not with my 16 trophys)

I collected my Vago from Laser last weekend and had a blast sailing it on Sunday. It is so much fun, fast without being difficult to sail, much faster than a L2000, much more comfortable than a L3000 and dosen't punish mistakes like the L4000, although obviously not as quick as the L4000. It was quite gusty on Sunday so we had it over a few times with the kite up, but as they say if you don't capsize your not trying hard enough!

Will you be club handicap racing Sumo? Be interesting to know how it does against similar boats once you've got used to it. Have fun with your new toy!!!

To be fair, Jo Richards could probably sail a Laser 3000 off 995 or lower and win...

And what results have you been getting on that PY?  Is it reasonable or is 920 closer to the mark?

"ah is it a kinda metal lever in front of the mast? I think i've seen 1 on a Challenger"

No, the gnav sits behind the mast but above the boom - it is a solid strut which pushes down on the boom and is adjusted by one end moving on some sort of track or roller depending on the class. 

The Challenger is quite different - not sure what it is called...

When I spoke to the chaps from Laser they were talking of 980 for the Vago with the XD sail.

Portsmouth Yardsticks, I'm sure you can get these on the web and you'll notice the Buz is 1005. Looking at the Vago I can't see it being any faster than a Buz.  I was comparing the two boats today.  The Vago doesn't appear to have as much sail area and I can't believe its appreciatively lighter.  Further the hull of the Vago looks less likely to be as fast in non-planing mode - which boats of this type spend quite a bit of time doing.

So until I've sailed one I'd say a yardstick of less than a 1000 is highly ambitious.

Laser stopped production of the 3000 in late 2003 when sales were down to 20 to 30 boats/year (150 boats/year at the peak). Also, I'm led to believe the major manufacturers find GRP increasingly difficult and expensive to build in due to UK health and safety regs, hence constructing hulls overseas.

These quantities are ideal for small builders though ... Vandercraft have started production of an improved 3000 in epoxy/woven cloth, building on their Phantom experience. Sould be excellent build quality, made in the UK at a sub-£5000 price tag, and sail well to the existing 1030 PY rating.

Look out for the new boat at the Southampton Boat Show next month (next to the Topper stand at the bottom of the entry ramp).

Yes, I understand the class association are making a few mods when they relaunch the class.  I've not sailed the 3000 but I suspect that the people who sail the boats are likely to get the design right.  It may therefore turn out to be a worthwhile design and suit some people whereas the Vago looks to be full of so many compromises that everybody will find something they don't like about it.  You have to admit that for a rotomoulded it doesn't look too bad. 

I've not got a lot of facts to go by but I would have thought that since the mast is untapered a carbon rig might have hardly increased the price but it would have met with such universal admiration that the sales would have been much higher.  I suspect a missed opportunity.

The Vago and the 3000 are quite different boats, the 3000 is very much a racing dinghy whereas the Vago is intended to be much more versatile. The L3000 is narrow with a low freeboard and is very cramped. The Vago has a much higher freeboard, is more spacious and much more comfortable to sail. The 3000 is very weight sensitive and for larger crews it is difficult to stop the stern dragging in the water. As I fall into the large category of sailor I find that the Vago goes quicker for me than a 3000 which is usually doing a good impression of a submarine.

Laser have replaced the 3000 with a boat which will have a much wider audience and the correct PY number will soon become apparent. At the end of the day I suspect very few L3000 will opt for the Vago as it is not really aimed at them.

Well i think the 3000 is quite a nice boat but that may be becuase we are the right weight for it not that i actually sail one much! Thye pop up onto the plane quickly and seem to feel fast downwind becuase you are wiring close to water.

I've sailed several 3000 opens with a heavyweight crew in light-moderate wind (worst case me 11 st, crew 14.5 st) and wasn't disadvantaged in displacement mode sailing with the weight well forward ... I was making ground on the beats.

The totally open transom makes dragging the stern very obvious on the 3000. You sure the Vago stern wasn't also dragging, but less obvious.

That's not light, but at the same time it's not really heavy either, try 21 and 13st!

It is a lot easier to move the weight right forward on the Vago and it is a lot easier to stop the tail dragging, i.e. the open transom  is clear of the water, the wake isn't turbulent and you boat goes better. The Vago as a design just has more bouyancy than the L3000.

Originally posted by yellowhammer blimey, never mind dragging the stern, you must have been paddling!  (no offence)

Yes, we gave up trying to sail the 3000 and took out the clubs L4000, which is a very nice boat, however it is not tolerant of mistakes so would quite often end up going for a swim. I bought the Vago so that I could sail single handed as well as two up and continue to improve my/our sailing, as we are relative newcommers to sailing, i.e. less than two years.

I'd like to see 21 stone on the wire of a 3K or Vago

I've been singlehanding the 3K this summer, although I need a good F3 for it to work, otherwise I'm in and out too much. The 3K is nice to singlehand and looks and works OK too with the low freeboard, unlike the Buzz and probably Vago with high freeboard which looks like you're singlehanding a two handed dinghy and is probably not as easy to climb out on.

If you want to defend the Vago corner Sumo, visit http://laser3000.lasersailing.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=509 - http://laser3000.lasersailing.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5 09  and give us your impressions

All you would see is a broken mast!

Having broken a mast on a Dart 16, which was  not fun, the feedback from Laser is that their masts aren't designed for somebody of my weight. They won't put an exact figure on it, but from the conversations I have had they reckon around 16 stone is the upper limit. Although the mast probably won't break first time out if you are heavier than that, it is likley that you would be causing fatigue damage.

One of the main reasons I chose the Vago is that you can sail it single handed, which I did yesterday including getting the kite up, getting it on the plane and hiking like a b****** to keep it flat, lovely .

You broke a Dart 16 mast by going out on the trapeze?

I can't remember exactly what the Dart 16 mast is like, but if it's anything like the one on the Hobie 15 / 16 there must have been something wrong with it. Those things could be used to lift cars from!

The mast used on the Vago / 3000 is probably the same as on my Fireball (Superspars M7+) which seems quite happy with 500 pounds of rig tension and a 15 stone crew. (Don't think the 3000 or Vago would cope with that much rig tension though.....)

I've never seen a mast break though vertical compression, only when a shroud has let go or a massive external force is applied by capsizing in shallow tidal water or the like.

Well done Sumo.  I notice you have only a couple of years experience and are quite happy to sail a 4000.  That's pretty good I'd say, so I'll be interested in how you get on in whatever boat you choose.  I would not have thought your weight alone would be resonsible for breaking masts, as you can see from Ian99's post the rig tensions used on modern boats greatly exceed your weight.

You know you should consider an Osprey - they really do carry weight very well.  Similar handicap to a 4000 but done in a completely different way. I'm told some even have a cocktail cabinet!

I can confirm that you can have a cocktail cabinet in the Ospey, but it is an optional extra .  Difficult to stir one at speed though

The mast was brand new and it folded like a toilet tube about one third up, i.e. mid point between the bottom and the shrouds, so classic compression loading!

Although I have only being sailing for a couple of years, I have sailed almost every weekend possible in those two years, even through the winter with ice in the bottom of the boat. I have also taken advantage of the Select membership scheme at Queen Mary, i.e. joing fee and monthly subscription allowing free use of hire boats and the RYA training courses for free. In this way I have had the benefit of some excellent tuition and an opportunity to work up from the Stratos, Laser 2000, Laser 3000 to the Laser 4000, with the odd bit of Laser and Laser Vortex thrown in.

When it came to buying my own boat I chose the Vago as a dinghy I could sail in most conditions either double or single handed. Much as I enjoy the 4000 I wouldn't feel comfortable sailing it in really windy conditions, however the plan is to continue to improve and lose some weight so that in the not to distant future a more high performance dinghy becomes a sensible option.  

Yes I like it (the Osprey that is).  It was designed for the same Olympic trials as the 5o and the FD.  My youngest learned to trapeze and crew on mine from the age of 10. 

Not everyones cup of tea but suits me fine. (and people tell me it looks good on the water at the club.  Never any shortage of takers for a go in it).

New FRP ones are just being made now I believe and if I can save my pennies and get permission and have another one as well.  One for club and one for travelling

That sounds like a compression failure, but I'm sure the mast should be able to take that sort of load.

Did you get a replacement for free, or did they make you claim on insurance? Sounds like something had gone wrong in manufacture to me.

Don't always believe what retailers tell you, I know of a well known large supplier who tried to convince a customer that the spreaders put in the wrong place on his mast were the "new thinking". It took him a while to get them to admit they'd made a mistake!

The Vago mast I saw (albeit from a distance) seems to have next to no taper whatsoever at the top.  Put that on your Fireball and you'd know about it!

I was quite surprised in some ways as it looks a fairly tall rig, although it does look quite high aspect ratio which perhaps means it is not as important that the upper leech opens to dump power as there is not that much up there.

I'm guessing Laser are going down the "indestructible" route in the design thinking...

It was a club hire boat, hence the discussion with Laser re mast strength. Regardless of the strength or lack of strength in an individual mast from the clubs perspective if Laser says that there is a limit on trapezing weight then they don't have a choice but to take notice.

As I had trapezed in other Dart 16s in windier conditions without problems then it is likely that this mast was at the weak end of the manufacturing tolerances. How do they validate that a particular mast has the required strength before despatch, what quality control is carried out?

The only reason to have a non tapered mast is on grounds of cost! A sailing school I used to work for used "non tapered Wayfarer style" masts, which were about £100 cheaper than the "proper" Wayfarer mast. They still managed to break quite a few though (tidal capsizes and sheared shroud plates mostly)

Maybe the heavyweight Fireball crews should try a non tapered mast - I've heard a few people complaining that the masts are too flexible!

The pressure in the sails defines the trapezing moment that can be applied for a dinghy (although it will be subtley different for a cat). Can the 3000/Vago sail area generate enough force to take 21 stone trapezing worth of righting moment? Is the large weight trapezing close in the problem? I'm trying to picture a vector diagram .....

Sumo .... or anyone .... have you single handed your Vago from the wire yet? (and if not why not!).  

What's it like to step out of - I can't see from the brochure pics what on earth you'd brace your feet on.   Strangely, the man in the brochure is using a tiny tiller extension, which isn't the best of adverts and does make me wonder how much laser are committed to the Vago's singlehandableness..

The laser 3k is spot on for single hand trapezing with those ridges in the deck.  My laser 2 requires a leap of faith (and a foot on the main sheet block mounting).

PS: my old l2 also has a straight mast and the gust response of a barn door - but the Vago's looks more flexible - should help make up for no taper??

Not just the Laser 3000. Take a look at this:

http://laser3000.lasersailing.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=593 - http://laser3000.lasersailing.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5 93

I've sailed my Vago singlehanded, although I haven't trapezed, as I don't want to break the mast! The Vago has a step moduled in each side of the cockpit at the front for going out on the wire, so it shouldn't be a problem.

I had a look at the Vandercraft built 3000 at the show and they have addressed one of my major gripes, namely a lack of space, by changing to a gnav and switching to rear sheeting from the boom. Looks like a major step forward for the 3000.

If the mast breaks blame laser.  The Vago's designed and advertised for single hand trapezing (and I don't see a weight limit specced) so if you break a mast you're doing everyone a favour by forcing laser / selden to redesign it!!!!!

That little moulded seat / step.  Does it have any grip?  I'd assumed it was for nervous kids and mums to sit on when being taken for a cruise.

......... ach but forget all that, I just followed

http://laser3000.lasersailing.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5 93 - http://laser3000.lasersailing.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5 93

want one .... now. 

Originally posted by carshalton fc yer the new 3k looks very good!!  will it race with the 3000's or will it have its own race/start at events?  cos the new one will probily be faster!!

Thanks for the feedback ... glad you like it. Jeff Vander Borght and his builders have done a great job and the V3000 should be a sweet little race boat

Once the class has voted on rule changes they'll race together with Laser 3000s, with weight equalisation for class racing only. Once a few members have V3000s on the circuit we can have a vote on whether to remove the equalisation.

Maybe in a couple of years we can form divisions within the fleet with shared starts (like the Ospreys with different Mk boats) with an overall champion. Serious contenders will buy V3000s, but Laser 3000s will still be competitive and upgradeable in all but the hull, and provide an entry level.

The challenge will be to win overall with a Laser ... I'm keeping mine (Class Secretary) so we won't sacrifice older boats. Expect Laser 3000 values to remain solid with the new life in the class.

Superb result!!!

If the mast breaks blame laser.  The Vago's designed and advertised for single hand trapezing (and I don't see a weight limit specced) so if you break a mast you're doing everyone a favour by forcing laser / selden to redesign it!!!!!

/QUOTE]

I had a conversation with Laser on this issue and they don't recomend someone of my not inconsiderable weight trapezing as it will over stress the mast. In fact with my weight conditions would have to be ballistic before I would be able to go out fully on the trapeze any way, so hiking out is more than adequate!