Not sure if this is the right place for this post, but hope it's OK.

My and my sailing buddy purchased a 2nd hand Laser II last year. Both of us have some sailing experience, but I wouldn't say that either of us are particularly good. We thought that a Laser II would be a good place to start - given cheap (in case we completely trashed it!), two handed, kite, and trapease.

We have had a lot of fun in the boat, but we have a few problems:
1) We are both 6'3" and weigh around 90kgs, and the boat just seems too small for us
2) The boom is very low
3) The boat is very narrow so it seems to be unstable - maybe just our crap sailing!
4) The sails are very baggy, and I think this affects our upwind performance (again could still be our crap sailing!)

We have asked around the club to see what people think we could sail and we get various opinions (usually seems to be people wanting to increase the number of boats in their class.....) Some people suggested Flying Fifteen, but I think this is too niche, and too much hastle to get in and out of the water (also the damage that we could do to it given the fixed keel!). I quite like the look of the RS400, but I don't know if it would be too advanced for us...

Any suggestions much appreciated.

Thanks

Hi Kaos,

I am biased, and yes I do want to increase the numbers in my class, but i hope the advice is still relevant.

If you are both over 6' and 90 kilos, there are really only two dinghies worth considering if you want any kind of performance: Osprey or Flying Dutchman. Both are big, powerful and fast. Both will carry weight well. of the two, the FD is faster and in my opinion more fun to sail (not to mention better looking!), but either one will be fun and can be bought relatively cheaply. The RS400 is a good boat, but with 180kg on board you will struggle, and quite possibly break it!

Sadly there are no modern asymmetric boats that will carry this sort of crew weight sensibly.

If you want to come and try an FD, i will gladly take you out.

Neil

this may seem like an odd boat to recomend but a hurricane 5.9 could be the perfect boat, heavy weight crews are just as competitive as the lightweight ones. The boat are can be picked up cheaply and are very stable compared to a laser 2.

You do not need to be a super helm to be able to sail one and the winning will come a little later!! The class holds events to get new owners settled into the boat.

http://www.hurricane59.com/forsale/default.asp?id=1 - http://www.hurricane59.com/forsale/default.asp?id=1  the boats currently for sale

http://www.rs-association.com/snitz/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=218 - http://www.rs-association.com/snitz/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=218  would suggest that at 28 stone, an RS/400 is still worth considering. I don't think they are particularly "advanced" to sail.

The normal question, of course, is what classes are sailed at your club, as you will usually learn most and have most fun sailing the same classes as other people.

Not many boats are competative with 180kg. Have a go in a flying fifteen its not that difficult to dry sail and it will carry your weight.

The other option is go single handed giving you a wider choice of boats, OK,Solo,Finn,Phantom,Musto Skiff, get 2 and you can race each other. Try before you buy.

Backing up Neil, any of the symmetric 'power classes' can be picked up dirt cheap and are a blast to sail.  I'm guessing a fireball would be a bit tight, but FD's etc should give you no end of fun.

Have a look at http://www.fastsail.org - www.fastsail.org , covers all the above

Rob

Yes you're heavy for a Laser2 but be prepared to sail something more tippy.  A Laser2 is a stable boat! 

400s are beautiful boats and somewaht more sophisticated than a Laser2 (but then aren't most) and although you are heavy for it you'd have a great deal of fun in one.  The Osprey suggestion is a good one, fast, good weight carrier and temendous in waves, but aren't they made of wood?

59er is a great boat to sail and should cope with 180Kg.  My experience of the Bethwaite boats (mainly Laser II & Tasar) is that the minimum weight they claim is optimistic and you are often better off near the top of their estimated range - especially if you are not in peak physical condition.

I sailed a 59er at SkiffAsia (sorry to keep dropping that name in...) and between us we were 150Kg and were fully powered up upwind in about 8 knots.  Downwind the boat is effortlessly fast and you have to be very sensitive to the rudder going into a gybe - you only realise how fast you are going when you move the rudder 5 degrees and the boat turns so fast you have capsized before you know it!  But, a sensitive touch on the rudder and it is very sweet.  The assy kite is beautiful to handle too.  It is simpler than the RS400 kite because you don't have wing wang lines or separate pole and halyard lines.

It also feels much more stable than a Laser II because you don't have to keep standing up all the time to play with the spinnaker pole.

The rig is very automatic with just minor sheeting and helm adjustments needed to keep it flat and moving.

Downside inthe UK I guess is that there aren't many second hand boats or fleets...so you could be lonely sailing it.  And like to RS400 it is a hiking boat so you need good abs to get the best from it.

If you have the cash to buy one then it is definitely worth a test sail.

Redback, some Ospreys are wood some are GRP (lovely GRP one going up North at the moment).  New FRP ones being made this year.

In fact look under "for sale" on http://www.ospreysailing.org.uk - www.ospreysailing.org.uk

could go for a merlin rocket, would be a little bit heavy but devestating in a breeze, fairly responisve but you will get used to it. Very beautiful boats, soooo much better looking than and RS rubbish or and of the bethwaite 9ers. 14ft long, fairly large rig, decent spinny! and away you go!

go to http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk - www.merlinrocket.co.uk

here is a photo of one I took at the weekend at the salcombe merlin ST open

Wow, thanks everyone for the overwhelming response  I wish I had asked earlier!

Some extra points that may influence the decision - we sail inland Chew Valley Lake (south of Bristol) - so no real waves, although it does get a fairly good amount of wind (I guess as it's not to far away from the Severn estuary). We really don't want a boat that is a lot of hassle to maintain - the free time we have we want to be on the water, rather than sanding / filling / painting / varnishing! Also we would prefer a boat that's fairly easy to get in and out of the water, and no large keels to damage!

There is a large fleet of Flying Fifteens at the club (and a couple for sale, which are pretty cheap), but these don't really fall into the criteria above. Also this boat seems to becoming less and less popular, and although we probably will never be competing, I don't want to end up with a boat that I cannot get rid of.

We did actually look at a beautiful Merlin Rocket when we bought the Laser II, but we decided that we really wanted something that was low maintenance.

I know that there are far too many criterion here, but I think the maintenance issue, with our combined weight will probably limit the selection quite a bit.

Once again, many thanks for all the postings up to now - it's really been very useful...

Paul

There are some plastic ones. However 28 stone is really very heavy for a Merlin these days. I once sailed mine with that weight in the boat and it felt incredibly sticky; it just wouldn't go. Competitive teams are usually 20-22 stone. Interestingly, 20-odd years ago heavyweights were competitive but increasing rig refinement has meant lightweights benefit downwind and in the light stuff but can now also keep the boat flat upwind in a blow and so gain all round. 

Yes, but from what I remember there is a huge variation in Merlin Rockets, and we thought we could find one that suited our weight.... but then all that maintenance put us off. I didn't realise that you could get plastic ones... Anyway I suppose that's academic if not suited to our combined weight.

Cheers

Paul

I sailed a Hurricane 5.9 sx at 28 to 30 stone all up, got away with it at times too!

ideal weight about 24 stones ,

Would thoroughly recommend a look ,

Just poppin in my bunker to avoid mono flak !

Not really, at least if you are talking about reasonably modern (and competitive) hulls. There are only three basic hull shapes that have been built over the last 15 years or so (with minor variations on the theme) and none of them are weight-carriers.

I totally agree! Merlins just need a bit of looking after, make sure they are kept dry during the cold winter bit unless you are using it regularly. Get a merlin, you know it makes sense!

Tom,

Trying to upset potential customers of fotoboat?

Kaos,

At 28 stone you'd definitely be at the heavy end of the scale for a 400, but the boat would still cope with the weight ok.  The 400 is a great boat to sail and easier to handle than you might think.  The boats are also well made and there's a good supply of 2nd hand boats.

The other suggestions of an Osprey or an FD also good options for you, although I'm not sure how much choice you'll find in the 2nd hand market.  If you want something a bit slower paced you could try a Wayfarer.

A lot depends on where you plan to sail the boat!  It's often worth considering a popular local class, since you'll have more people to compare notes with!

Good luck filtering out all the biased opinions!

At Burghfield (inland lake, smaller than Bristol, typically light winds and shifty) we have 2 or 3 crews from the 10 or 12 RS400s who race regularly at around 28 to 30 stone. The only time they are non-competitive is on marginal planing on a close reach.

Stronger winds and they are very fast up wind. Lighter winds and they keep the boat moving better.

If you like the look of the RS400, then go for it. Great boats, well made. And now that the design is over 10 years old, there are some cheaper second hand boats becoming available.

More biased opinions! from

RS400 1254

That seems like a good idea. I had a look at the Class Association and they said there is a fleet at Chew Valley Lake SC.  However on CVLSC website it doesn't say there is a fleet of 505s?? WaveRider - noticed that you are also at Chew, is there a 505 fleet there?

We'll be over there this afternoon making fools of ourselves in our poky Laser II so we'll have a lookout for some 505s....

Cheers

Paul

Paul,

Yes there is a fleet of 505's admittedly not a huge one but a fair few so you could race and muck about with them.

Sadly i can't go to Chew this afternoon because i was sailing yesterday but next time you go down PM me and i'll watch you in your laser 2 (or chase you in the Fireball or Topper)!

Where do you normally sail?

Yeah there is DEFINATELY some at Chew because when i was out someone rigged one, quickly derigged it again because the wind was stupidly strong but there was a 3000, me and a mate in Toppers, a Fireball and a GP14 out because all the other boats went in but we were the odd people who like wind.

Never ever seen a GP14 go like this one was.........................the bloke was intending to practise rudderless sailing, quickly realised that it was a bit difficult in the wind and gave up

I think I know what he's saying.  (5420 could you just read through what you've written before you post it - we don't expect imaculate spelling but your's is hard to read.)

400s like all those other big roached mainsail boats do respond to tension down the leech.  So if you make sure the kicker goes slack when the mainsheet is hard in you'll find that you can modulate the power with the last couple of inches of mainsheet, this will enable you to smooth out (to and extent) the variations in wind strength.  Probaly 5420 realises this when he's in his 29er but didn't in the 400, or maybe 5420 wasn't on the helm?