skills 'ceiling'
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6026
Printed Date: 11 Nov 25 at 5:09pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: skills 'ceiling'
Posted By: winging it
Subject: skills 'ceiling'
Date Posted: 11 Oct 09 at 3:02pm
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Thinking about what Rick said in the Endeavour thread about winners coming from larger fleets, could it not be argued that if you sail in a smaller class, say with open meeting attendance of 10 or so, and nationals under thirty, and you're typically up against the same boats, do your skills stop developing when you reach the top of that fleet? And would these mean that in some way your skills are only as good, or slightly better than those around you, because once your at the top there's no pressure to develop further? Clearly there are some classes that demand a built in skill set, such as performance skiffs and singed hander trap boats, where participants have already cut their teeth in other classes, but what about all the smaller fleets? ------------- the same, but different... |
Replies:
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 11 Oct 09 at 4:01pm
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I'd say if you usually raced in a fleet of 10; only perhaps 3-4 of those would be good enough to win ... so you'd only need to be good enough to win. I think to continue to progress in any sport you need to continue to put yourself up against tougher & tougher competiton; same in any sport. However; many are happy to be a big fish in a small pond. ------------- |
Posted By: Jon711
Date Posted: 11 Oct 09 at 4:23pm
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While generally larger fleets have better sailors (IMHO) there are some cases where small fleets have the elite - take the Finn, 470, etc (was trying to think of an elite fleet that wasn't olympic, with small turnouts) - (just got it) Illusions.... |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Oct 09 at 4:51pm
| And those rubbish sailors they used to get in the Americas Cup: how hard can it be to win an event that rarely ever manages 10 entries? |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 11 Oct 09 at 5:01pm
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I suspect the Americas Cup and Olympic sailors fall into the category of those who have already proved themselves!
------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: Jon711
Date Posted: 11 Oct 09 at 5:16pm
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So are they good enough for the Endeavour Trophy?? Maybe we will never know!! Changing the thread slightly I would like to see all of the Olympic Team do an Endeavour style event, so that we can see who is the best of the very best... And by that I mean they all sail against each other.. Then we would have proof whether Iain Percy, Ben Ainslie, et al is the best sailor.. |
Posted By: MRJP BUZZ 585
Date Posted: 11 Oct 09 at 5:17pm
With the top ten from the real endeavour there. ------------- Josh Preater http://www.bu22.co.uk">  BUZZING IS FUN
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Posted By: Jon711
Date Posted: 11 Oct 09 at 5:23pm
The more I think about it, what great publicity for the UK Olympic squad. Even may get the BBC interested in that!!! |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 11 Oct 09 at 6:13pm
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I think you can exclude full time pros from this discussion. ------------- |
Posted By: Jon711
Date Posted: 11 Oct 09 at 6:19pm
Why, they need to publisice themselves as much, if not more than us mere mortals. What is your problam with the pro's. One of the most satisfying sails I had was beating , one of the pros. Let's just find out who the best is!! |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 11 Oct 09 at 6:24pm
I have no problem with pros but isn't this discussion about how people dveleop skills and how those skill progress with the size of the fleet they sail in? Pros can progress a lot in very small groups with intensive coaching, lots of time and analyis. e.g. 2 boat AC project. Huge resources applied to a small group = massive skills increase. I kinda got the feeling the OP was talking about weekenders ... ------------- |
Posted By: Jon711
Date Posted: 11 Oct 09 at 6:50pm
I know that you will find (If you care to check back) that I did say earlier that I was changing the thread..... |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 11 Oct 09 at 7:29pm
... are you now ... I am sure the OP will be delighted. ------------- |
Posted By: Jon711
Date Posted: 11 Oct 09 at 7:40pm
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If the OP is not delighted she will let me know either by personel E:Mail, via Facebook, via Y&Y, or via the CVRDA . Trying to stir the s**t will not work!! Sorry Rick, but you are starting to annoy me.... |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 11 Oct 09 at 7:47pm
Oh no ... ------------- |
Posted By: Jon711
Date Posted: 11 Oct 09 at 7:51pm
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Sorry, Rick, but you must have hit a raw nerve....
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Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 11 Oct 09 at 8:32pm
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Yeah Rick your turning into Grumpf! ------------- |
Posted By: Jon711
Date Posted: 11 Oct 09 at 8:47pm
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No there is now way that he's as bad GRF.. (And don't we just love them both!!) |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 11 Oct 09 at 9:46pm
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I am actually much more interested in how skills develop (or not) than finding out who is the best of the best. I suppose I'm thinking along the lines of whether club racers who only ever raceagainst each other ever fully realise their potential, but also whether open meeting sailors in smaller classes also reach a level where they don't get any better. This isn't meant to knock either of those groups - each to their own of course - but I wonder if a point gets reached where you just don't improve, or even whether a 'pecking order' gets established, especially at club level, where a psychological barrier also comes into play. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 11 Oct 09 at 9:59pm
Goodison & Saskia did the Endeavour in http://royalcorinthian.co.uk/result/2005-11-85-0/ - 2005 coming third . Pretty good result in my book for a non-asymmetric sailor |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 11 Oct 09 at 10:04pm
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I am sure they don't. I spent a season working in Menorca and many clients were typical club sailors. Some had been sailing in the smae classes for years yet there were a number of skills they still hadn't mastered. After a week of coaching many had improved dramatically. Our sport is odd in that most people spend most of their time racing and hardly ever train; so they don't improve, rather just keep racing at the same standard. In most sports competition often only fills 20% of the time ... ------------- |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 12 Oct 09 at 8:36am
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Having had a little offline discussion with Winging it on this one (she and I are a member of the same club). It is interesting to see this. We have a guy at our club who wins practically everything he sails in (at club level, he was 8th at the recent class nationals out of 60+ boats so he is a handy sailor). Everyone wants to get on terms and beat him. For most of us 'mere mortals' it is a great feeling when we get one over on him. What we cannot do is beat him consistently enough. There is a mindset of 'Oh so and so is here so that's another place down the fleet I go'. This has a huge impact (I think) in that people tend to ignore that person and give them an easy ride. Take the Laser fleet at Hunts. There are 4 or 5 of the regulars who are capable of winning regularly and consistently. When we are all out together there are some great battles (we had one recently when there were 3 boats seperated by nothing for the whole race, the winning boat won by about 2 feet). So you could say there is not established pecking order but there is one guy who I consider a challenge and perhaps that is why he tends to get ahead of me more then me ahead of him, I take my eye off the ball as it were. Now take this up another level. None of this group regularly competes on the Open circuit. When we get to our club Laser open the same 4 or 5 are generally there ot there abouts with the open circuit guys. Now this could just be home water advantage or it could be that the competitive local environment is pushing the standard up (discuss). As a side note I always find I underperform at the Laser open, particularly this year. I should quite easily have been second overall (I was holding secind in 2 races for a very long time). Then I made a few silly mistakes, probably second guessed myself and let people through (or went for a swim). This is probably more the difference (in a OD class anyway) The guys who do the open circuit are sharper and make less mistakes... Just my 2p.... ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 12 Oct 09 at 8:56am
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This is an interesting one and operates on a number of levels... First, class or "type" specific sailors become very skilled in what they do. For example someone who sails Lasers all the time, is going to struggle to sail an MPS skiff fast, or a Single handed F16 as they skill sets are very different. I'd struggle to sail a laser as I'd be fecked off with hiking out after a bout 30 seconds! (and my legs would hurt as I do not hike much on my F16). People who sail the same boat (or similar) would struggle to switch and stay in the same area of the fleet. With time, they would move up; and this would be faster than a novice sailor as SOME skills are transferrable.
Second, as mentioned above, pecking-order does exist and does fall apart at opens when those at the rear of the pecking order can no longer see the people!
Third, People who don't do opens can sometimes still get to the front(ish) of the fleet; the hunts example my be a good one if there are local oddities that help those that sail there, but if you have a good fleet at "home" this can keep you fairly sharp. Problems arise when the "home" fleet is not that good and so those that sail in it, think they are doing well as they win the "close" races and yet the "average flet skill" is low - big fish in a small pond syndrome....
------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 12 Oct 09 at 9:52am
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There are two distinct skill sets.
1) The making the thing go fast and not falling off it bit. 2) The making sure you go at the right time from the right place in all the right directions bit. The first one becomes difficult to maintain/learn afresh (especially when you start to knock the years on a bit and or get a proper job/family), but the second bit should stick most of your career, assuming you got to learn it properly in the first place and realised it's probably more important than the first bit. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 12 Oct 09 at 10:22am
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Agreed..
Well I say agreed, Doddsy Musto jockey manages to piss it in and still come up with race victories... Even leaving the start last, having to do turns at the gybe... There is therefor a third essential skill set to master.. 3)Mastery of Handicap Banditry.. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 12 Oct 09 at 10:28am
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It is very difficult to quantify exactly what makes some sailors so good. We have a 12 year old at our club whose father is a top competitor in another international sport. Now, his sailing skills seem no different from the other juniors but he sure wants to win and just needs to get a grip of the skill thing, and he will (win). Another junior seem thoughtful and keen to learn but needs the competitive edge. Top sailors who are well known names are all, or started as, club racers so spot the potential champions in your club. We have three sailors in our tiny club capable of winning national events, and two have achieved it. I have observed that national fleets are split into three. Good, average and poor. There will always be an elite group at the top with a chance of winning, the number of these increasing with the size of the fleet. Skill levels in different classes do not vary but young (ish) fit people sail 600's etc. and the more mature race the more 'portly' classes. All this is personal opinion from personal observation (observed from the back) of the fleet. |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 12 Oct 09 at 10:59am
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What I find is that, and especially this year when I have hardly any time in the boat at all, I have the knowledge, ie I know where I want to be on the course, but my boat handling skills are so pathetic as to make me unable to ge there. If I do get there, I don't know my rig well enough to maximise my speed, so I get left behind. That or I flunk the bear away.... What I'm finding as I coach 'Start Racing' is that I feel I am teaching a different skills set to that with which I am most familiar; I am most used to fleet racing on the sea or big stretches of open water, but in Start Racing I am coaching handicap racing on a small, shifty gravel pit because this is where my students will cut their racing teeth. Certainly the way we have dealt with the start is different; positioning and boat speed seems more important than trying to assess bias on a very short line. The pecking order issue is of particular interest to me because obviously I don't want my students to become absorbed into it. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 12 Oct 09 at 11:01am
or just developing speed... ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 12 Oct 09 at 12:25pm
In the case of Hunts the only skill that will help is being able to spot the shifts. The lake is small and surround on ost shores by trees. The legs are relatively short too so making sure you are between your oppenent and the mark (if ahead) is also paramount. As with any water sometimes the big risk (banging a corner) can pay but more often than not it is a case of following the shifts and concentrating on boat speed (it really sharpens up your boat handling having short legs to sail on). ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Dougal
Date Posted: 13 Oct 09 at 8:52am
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I think pretty much every club I have sailed at (as a member or just visiting, inland or sea) has some kind of local oddity. And even if it doesn't I would usually turn up expecting there to be one so be thrown by the fact that there isn't one. I think I may have just found a new excuse to add to the list.... (And I am not talking about the local oddities found in the bar after racing.....) |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 13 Oct 09 at 8:55am
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Has it ever occoured to you that he may be so much better than the rest that he can afford a few cock ups and still thrash you? ------------- |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 13 Oct 09 at 9:07am
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I certainly wouldn't rate Mustos as much of a Handicap bandit, frankly. But then, how could anyone be better than GRF? ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 13 Oct 09 at 9:18am
Exactly.. Especially a bloody dinghy sailor... ha. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 13 Oct 09 at 9:30am
He is way better than us, he ought to be, I seem to recall he did an Olympic campaign as a younger chap, but he's vice commodore sailing and I'm the one having to sail off a 915 handicap with a boat everyone else sails at 935.. So maybe the case of altered perception as to who the better sailor is? Edit: there were mutterings in the changing room on sunday about making me do the v.c sailing job have a guess what PY Doddsy will be on next season.   ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 13 Oct 09 at 1:17pm
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dodsy is retiring as rear sailing comodore next gear grumpf, perhaps you could fill his hikers and take the position. Dan ------------- Laser 184084 Tasar 3501 RS600 698 RS600 782 |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 13 Oct 09 at 1:30pm
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I'm not sailing near anyones rear next year Dan - re read the above post.
Oh and I'll be taking applications from V3000's for their PY I'm thinking 970.. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |