505s at the Sanpan Disco...
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5865
Printed Date: 10 Sep 25 at 11:00pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: 505s at the Sanpan Disco...
Posted By: Norbert
Subject: 505s at the Sanpan Disco...
Date Posted: 24 Aug 09 at 7:05pm
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The 505s are currently holding their World championships in San Francisco. Carnage all round. Here's some pickies from the Pre Worlds /North Americans in somewhat tamer conditions... http://bit.ly/1KenS - http://bit.ly/1KenS http://bit.ly/YEtmI - http://bit.ly/YEtmI |
Replies:
Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 24 Aug 09 at 9:30pm
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Great looking boats I want one! ------------- |
Posted By: MikeBz
Date Posted: 25 Aug 09 at 9:32am
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In race 2 only 45 out of 88 boats actually started. Clearly modern high-performance dinghy design has gone way too far. So far up it's own blind alley that it can see the light coming down the neck hole I see that this event is rumoured to have $160,000 of sponsorship, and as we all know all rumours are true. Entry fee was $500. Go figure! Must be one hell of a lot of free beer. Merlin Nationals last week - 2nd race on Thursday, 27 out of 50+ finished. Clearly it's all gone too far. Mary Whitehouse. |
. Discuss. Or perhaps don't.Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 25 Aug 09 at 9:49am
Dunno about the 505's but I always thought them quite seaworthy, I am told it can get pretty nasty there ... As for the Merlins I was on the water in a RIB that day; it was pretty rough but very sailable, but it's a fleet with quite a few more mature sailors and some inland sailors, many of these people are not championship contenders and are on holiday ... After the first race that day the fleet was sent ashore as it was breezey, some lost rigs (7-8) when the 2nd race was signalled a number chose not to launch, a very sensible decision if the conditions were beyond them.
------------- |
Posted By: Contender 541
Date Posted: 25 Aug 09 at 1:34pm
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There were a number of dismastings and snapped masts. They were sailing in an area where it was a bit shallow and masts were being stuck in the mud - combine that with a good swell and voila - dead mast A number of the boats also ran for shelter - I think that tells more of the story ------------- When you find a big kettle of crazy it's probably best not to stir it - Pointy Haired Boss Crew on 505 8780 |
Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: 25 Aug 09 at 1:51pm
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It does seem to be turning out to be a poorly made plan, the event was always going to be a windy one but they have to sail in the shallows as ships use the deep water channels plus an hours slog back from the race area to the boat park. Over at SA some of the competitors are actually starting to contemplate missing latter races. Show you how old I am, I was working in San Francisco in 1981 when the 505 Worlds were last there and whilst i remember it being typically windy I don't recall the attrition rate that is going on this year. |
Posted By: timnoyce
Date Posted: 25 Aug 09 at 2:21pm
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It looks that a lot of masts havs snapped above the hounds. Could this be put down to their huge kites and the mast not having been upgraded to take these higher loads? It looks like they are sailing windward leeward as they have the windward mark with spreader mark so perhaps they aren't putting the same loads through the boat as they would ragging the kites to make reaching marks but it must be making a difference. ------------- http://www.facebook.com/bearfootdesign - BEARFOOT DESIGN Cherub 2648 - Comfortably Numb |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 25 Aug 09 at 2:36pm
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while it's certainly the case more gear breaks when it's windy and planning a regatta in an area where boats have to sail in shallower water isn't great... it could just be a case of two things combining IMO i) the fact many competitors don't fancy the conditions ii) many competitos can't handle them and thus don't race, start but don't finish and/or break their boat Design of boats or equipment may be to blame, if there is a batch or trend in the breakages, e.g. all XXXXXX manufacturer masts brake in the same way in similar circumstances. Otherwise, I think it would be difficult to look at boats like 505 or Merlin and say "design at fault" as so clearly the same boats sail year-round in similar conditions and don't suffer the same attrition/breakage rate. Also, much of the kit on them is identical to that used in other classes. ------------- Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one |
Posted By: MikeBz
Date Posted: 25 Aug 09 at 2:43pm
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In case anyone hasn't noticed there was a trace of irony in my post, harking back to some earlier threads that we've had on here about xyz types of boat being "too extreme"... By those same definitions it's now proven that the 505 and the Merlin have 'gone too far' which clearly is utter rubbish. Mike |
Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: 25 Aug 09 at 3:48pm
By jiggery i think you might have it there! Certainly they all sport second sets of spreaders high up, next you'll see them with masthead trapeze wires! |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 25 Aug 09 at 4:05pm
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From the posts on SA, it appears that most of the damage has been done by ploughing the bottom of 'Frisco bay - not what masts were designed to do!
------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 25 Aug 09 at 5:25pm
Too subtle Mike ... but I quite agree ... ------------- |
Posted By: Skiffybob
Date Posted: 25 Aug 09 at 5:44pm
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I got it. I was just surprised not to see a response from Grumph saying that what you really need is a seaworthy boat, like a Snipe ------------- 12ft Skiff - Gordon Keeble and the Furry Fly-by AC - GBR271 - Whoosh B49 - Island Alchemy |
Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: 25 Aug 09 at 6:13pm
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Pics on http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=92748&view=findpost&p=2429555 - Sailing Anarchy And here on http://www.printroom.com/ViewGallery.asp?userid=the_REAL_photoboy&gallery_id=1724971 - Printroom |
Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 25 Aug 09 at 6:48pm
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No web forum wind there!!! ------------- |
Posted By: oldarn
Date Posted: 26 Aug 09 at 9:45am
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Clearly from the pics and videos the 5o5 is now a big and not young boys
toy. As previously stated by Rick, it was considered to be a seaworthy boat in big seas and winds up to gusting f7, though still today the winner don't dunk! I guess the increased number mast breakages is due to the rig not taking the jumbo kite together with the increased team weight necessary to win in wind with the large kites. The large kite of course mean more capsizes when jybing and with the inevitable inversion and shallow waters a mast breakage is likely. The average team weights of the ageing fleet is now more likely to be 200kg than 180kg, alot to hang on a mast without double spreaders! ------------- thefastexcitingrunningasymmetric |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 26 Aug 09 at 10:06am
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I did wonder what was going on with all those masts breaking..
It's another example of the "Class System" acting against itself. They should have at least had a look at the Alto. There should be one competing alongside them. Biggest disappointment of my recent career that the Alto didn't get the attention and exposure it rightly deserves. All the promises from the builder that it was 'off to the States' were about as hollow as his offers of rich pastures for the Halo Blaze, have these people no foresight? As to the 505 sure it's a great boat, but great in the same way you view those old racing Bentleys, way over complicated in some areas hopelessly antedeluvian in others.. Opportunity being misses imho. And what happened to Pinnel & Bax? Those bastions of the Mirror Dinghy rfwot they turned out to be.. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: Alistair426
Date Posted: 26 Aug 09 at 11:03am
| Recent years have seen improved levels sailability in lots of classes and this has meant that they can be managed in conditions which, 'back in the day', would have seen everybody on the pitch-and-putt. However, those conditions are no more benign if things go wrong. A Merlin with a raking rig is eminently sailable in a Force 6 BUT the waves are no smaller and the water no deeper than it was twenty years ago when stiff, upright ali masts disuaded all but the strongest and the best. |
Posted By: oldarn
Date Posted: 26 Aug 09 at 12:23pm
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[QUOTE=G.R.F.]
There should be one competing alongside them. The 5o's let me sail with them at the recent Shotley 5o5 meeting. I agreed to keep out of there way and started behind them. The beating was very intersting with the AltO only a midge slower than the better boats and that with the totally flat topped mainsail which put Geoff at 12 stone just half way out when the five O teams were fully extended. It shold have been the "final' Hyde version, but once again some factory error meant they managed to produce the same flat sail. I predict that it will be a smidge faster and with a much lighter team. Off the wind it was equally interesting the boat again just a smidge slower but with a 17m2 kite as opposed to their monsters. But significant was the importance at times of the option of being able to dead run, as do the fiveO's more often than the non swinging classes would wish to believe, perhaps up to f3. ------------- thefastexcitingrunningasymmetric |
Posted By: Chas 505
Date Posted: 27 Aug 09 at 10:20am
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Hi there Oldarn, Good to see you at the Shotley open. On spinnakers, we all felt that the asym on your boat was a bit.....well small. I get the fact that you want to be able to sail with a scratch crew and all, but we thought that it could have been about 25% bigger with no actual major handling issues. GRF - suffice to say that if Mike Martin is binning the boat in (twice so far, is it?) then conditions out there would eat most other designs of dinghy. The tweaking is what keeps the 505 (overpowered design, right) sailable, across the range. On other subjects: Weight, I think you will find that crew weights have actually come down during the past decade - basically due to the fact that we no longer do tight reaches...even on a traingle there is just no point, you're always better saving the weight and wiring earlier on a 10-knot beat. On age, the UK fleet is delighted to have elected 2 new members to the committee in 2009 who are both under 20 yrs of age.....marketing and PR...yup that's under twenty years of age. I'm fairly sure that even the 420 fleet cannot better that. Chas - 35 yrs and feeling old...!
------------- Life is too short. Work Hard; Play Hard; Sail a 505 |
Posted By: Chas 505
Date Posted: 27 Aug 09 at 10:27am
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On another thought - has everyone seen the Satelite coverage? Looks good to be able to see the race track that clearly. if you speed up to about 100 times, you can get a really good overview of the races..! Oh yes, and before anyone starts up about the costs of a new 505, you might like to reflect that 8081 (are they still top 10?) is about 20yrs old. You could probably buy that boat for about 8k - if they were selling. Also for about £7,5k there is a great UK boat on the market at the moment 8694. All the toys, great looking boat, and still being circuit raced. The late 86's were an exceptional batch from Rondar. This was defo one of them - anyone looking to get into the fleet could not do better - contact Matt. ------------- Life is too short. Work Hard; Play Hard; Sail a 505 |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 29 Aug 09 at 10:24am
------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: Contender 541
Date Posted: 29 Aug 09 at 11:28am
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Such a fantastic feeling ------------- When you find a big kettle of crazy it's probably best not to stir it - Pointy Haired Boss Crew on 505 8780 |
Posted By: FireballNeil
Date Posted: 29 Aug 09 at 4:34pm
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That is a great photo! ------------- Neil 
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Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 29 Aug 09 at 4:59pm
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As was noted elsewhere Grumpfs it's all gone too far all those capsizes and mast breakages ... as with the recent Merlin Nationals where there were a number of broken masts these highly refined bits of kit have all gone too far ... makes the 49er medal race looks safe as houses as there were no lost rigs during that race ... perhaps the newer designs are more robust ------------- |
Posted By: oldarnus
Date Posted: 29 Aug 09 at 5:18pm
Thanks Chas. I appreciated the friendly bunch of five O sailors especially in the circumstances, and fully understood Simon Lakes feeelings. He is such a great 5o5 believer as I am, but I'm too old for the sort of great events like the Worlds in San Francisco. In fact my delay in replying was due to me travelling to SF were I have sampled the atmosphere of the great event. Wow those video shots must inspire most dinghy sailors to want to sail the greatest big dinghy ever. In the past most good young dinghy sailors had to give the 50 a go and try and win the nationals. I'm thinking of people like Laurie Smith and Ed Owen, but today that does not happen. Why not? Perhaps the boat is such a complicated machine that they have not time to serve thei apprenticeship. I have always felt that two person single trapeze sailing offered the best challenge and most fun, and I'd like to believe it is comming back following the decline of the skiffy versions. Look at how popular is the Fireball, and now with ths RS500 as a beginners version, and hopefully the growth of the AltO, all club 'family' boats for the ultimate goal after perhaps an olympic medal, would be to win in five O's. What an awsome boat viewing it bows on in a big wind and see! I'm now off to feel and see the buzz of the last day. Mike ------------- You don't give up when you know you have a winner! |