Cee-Vee stock...I give up!
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5845
Printed Date: 06 Aug 25 at 10:34am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Cee-Vee stock...I give up!
Posted By: Iain C
Subject: Cee-Vee stock...I give up!
Date Posted: 17 Aug 09 at 10:39pm
|
I've got a new CeeVee stock for the other half's Europe, and the bottom SeaSure gudgeon it came with needs to be changed to a pintle. Problem is, I cannot for the life of me get the gudgeon off, there's three countersunk bolts up each side, with the nut on the outside, and the screw head on the inside...of a stock that's only 21mm wide. Even with a cunningly designed home made sideways screwdriver thing, it's all too tight (with a poor quality screw head too) to get it undone, and even hacksawing a slot on the nut side (outside) I can't get them out. Before I attack it tomorrow in a shower of Anglo Saxon and an angle grinder, is there some special way of doing this? Seems a shame as there's £20 of unused rudder gudgeon that's gonna be a very expensive piece of scrap by the time I've angle ground it's ass!  Thoughts?  ------------- RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed" Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs" Enterprise GBR21970 Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra" |
Replies:
Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 17 Aug 09 at 10:45pm
|
Is the thread (on the outside) long enough to get some mole grips onto, then stick a ring spanner on first, grind on the moles and voila? Unless (as is probably the case) it's corroded to buggery.. Prob need some new bolts put it back together... |
Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 17 Aug 09 at 10:46pm
|
http://www.diytools.co.uk/diy/Main/sp-69-4745-25989-draper-2-piece-plain-slot-pz-type-angle-screwdriver-set.asp - http://www.diytools.co.uk/diy/Main/sp-69-4745-25989-draper-2 -piece-plain-slot-pz-type-angle-screwdriver-set.asp ------------- |
Posted By: Villan
Date Posted: 17 Aug 09 at 11:04pm
|
You could do it the easy way .. and just change the fitting on the hull? ------------- Vareo - 149 "Secrets" http://www.TandyUKServers.co.uk" rel="nofollow - TandyUK Servers |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 17 Aug 09 at 11:35pm
|
So the nut and screw just rotate if you put a spanner on the nut? Must be some loctite or locknuts involved? Heat will break down loctite. Otherwise you have a perfect excuse to buy a dremel. |
Posted By: Ross
Date Posted: 18 Aug 09 at 5:02am
|
EDIT ------------- Ross If you can't carry it, don't sail it! |
Posted By: mongrel
Date Posted: 18 Aug 09 at 7:16am
| Put a spanner on the nut, then get a small drill (the same diameter as the bolt)and and start drilling a hole down the bolt. It may start unscrewing, or just gradually drill the bolt/screw away. You should be able to save scrapping the pintle. You could also try getting a dremel or similar and grinding the nuts off. |
Posted By: Jamesd
Date Posted: 18 Aug 09 at 7:48am
|
I had exactly the same problem on a RS stock. i got screwdriver bit out of my drill set, clamped it tightly into a pair of mole grips so that it faced perpendicularly outwards and then wound the nut off with a socket set. |
Posted By: Contender 541
Date Posted: 18 Aug 09 at 8:26am
|
One tip to undo stubbon screws is to tighten them first - this helps to break any gunk. Then try to undo. ------------- When you find a big kettle of crazy it's probably best not to stir it - Pointy Haired Boss Crew on 505 8780 |
Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 18 Aug 09 at 8:59am
|
Cheers for the tips. Stock is brand new...there's no corrosion. Bolts are almost flush on the outside so there's no room for mole grips. There's not enough room between the plates of the stock to get a bit from a socket/screwdriver set in (the stock is designed for a 21mm blade remember). Not sure about the 90 degree driver, I don't have one, I had thought about it, but in my experience the end is usually more than 21mm long I might try drilling it, but if it breaks or slips I risk scratching the stock, where at least if I use the grinder I know there's less chance of that happening. I've got a dremel, but even with that there's going to be marks on the black anodised bit of the gudgeon. Changing the boat is a non-starter, the gudgeons on the boat are just plain 90 degree pieces of folded stainless...changing it to a seasure pintle means filling and re-drilling as the hole spacing is wider, and the reinforced part inside the transom won't be right either and will need windening too. Thanks anyway, but grinder it is then!!!!  ------------- RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed" Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs" Enterprise GBR21970 Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra" |
Posted By: timnoyce
Date Posted: 18 Aug 09 at 9:10am
|
We used to have little ratchet side screwdrivers which would take bits from an electric drill/driver, these were perfect for these sort of jobs. I'm just googling them but can't find any. Hmmmm. Bear with me! Right, well essentially it was one of these...  but the ends were shaped like a hex to accept various posi, flat or hex type bits. You could just try taping one of the posi bits into a small spanner which you should be able to get inside? ------------- http://www.facebook.com/bearfootdesign - BEARFOOT DESIGN Cherub 2648 - Comfortably Numb |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 18 Aug 09 at 11:18am
|
Try finger spanners:
http://www.hexhold.com/shop.php ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Alistair426
Date Posted: 18 Aug 09 at 12:13pm
|
Try contacting Viners Engineering and ask them how to get it off..they put it on. http://www.ceevee.co.uk/production.htm - http://www.ceevee.co.uk/production.htm |
Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 18 Aug 09 at 4:51pm
|
Try drilling down the centre of the bolt, then use a stud extractor
They're left handed tapered threads in hardened steel - if you can hold the nut, then it's quite likely that the screw will wind out. Sometimes the heat of drilling the screw will free the thread as well!
|
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 18 Aug 09 at 5:33pm
|
Faced with this problem last year I changed the gudgeon on
the hull to a pintle and left the stock alone. I never did work out how they managed to put it together! ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 18 Aug 09 at 9:59pm
GRRRRRR goddamit CeeVee! Crap design!!!! Basically, they confirmed it was an angle grinder job, so off came £20 of brand new gudgeon and in the bin it went. I then managed to source some short countersunk s/s M5 bolts, but putting them in from the inside (as before) meant that the countersinks in the thin ally folded body of the stock were not deep enough to contain all of the countersunk part of the screw head, and it would have fouled the top of the rudder when raising/lowering it. So I had to clamp a belt sander upside down in my workmate, hold the bolts in pliers and grind the heads down a bit, then fit them from the inside, and loctite the nuts on. I have to say, this kind of thing bloody annoys me, at the end of the day a gudgeon is a wear part (no it was not the type with the replaceable bush), so why not either supply the thing without a bottom fitting, so we can choose what we want, or just supply it loose. Or, ask SeaSure to supply the fittings undrilled, and then attach it with staggered bolts, so if you remove the rudder blade you have a hole on one side of the stock allowing you to get a screwdriver or even better an allen key onto the bolt head. Getting it off with a grinder is a nightmare. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php">  Rant over!!! ------------- RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed" Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs" Enterprise GBR21970 Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra" |
Posted By: Villan
Date Posted: 18 Aug 09 at 10:16pm
They expect you, yes Iain, *YOU* to buy the right rudder and stock to fit your boat. They build the stock so it won't come apart easily so that it doesn't fall apart downwind at 20knts .. I'm sure you'd be on here crying like a baby if that happened, wouldn't you? "Oh, its crap, they didnt build it right .. etc." I just bought a new block to go on my kicker, but its too big .. why can't I pull it apart to put a bigger wheel in? Why can't they supply the blocks unbuilt, so I can put the number of ball bearing I want into it ... ------------- Vareo - 149 "Secrets" http://www.TandyUKServers.co.uk" rel="nofollow - TandyUK Servers |
Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 18 Aug 09 at 10:41pm
|
...because according to the well known chandlers where I bought it, that is the Europe stock, and that's how it comes, assembled in that way, and that way only. But Europes were made by many different builders...and as that "Europe" stock is also listed for other classes, it's a fair assumption that not every boat that the stock is destined for is configured in the same way. The mould that our Europe popped out of is clearly set up for two small right angle s/s gudgeons on the hull. Trust me, if I could have just changed the hull fittings easily, I would. And no, I would'nt be "crying like a baby", what a daft thing to say. I can remove almost every other part on any boat I sail including the rig, racks, foils, and remove any "wear parts" without resorting to an angle grinder as it's designed to come apart should you need to dismantle it. Jeez, you can even get a keel off a yacht by undoing the keelbolts...no grinder required! And from above, I'm not the first person to experience this! (And finally, 20kts in a Europe, now that really would be a code brown!) ------------- RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed" Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs" Enterprise GBR21970 Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra" |
Posted By: Jon711
Date Posted: 18 Aug 09 at 11:24pm
|
"Jeez, you can even get a keel off a yacht by undoing the keelbolts...no grinder required! "
have you ever tried removing a keel from a yacht - I've done loads, it takes a lot more than just undoing the bolts.. Trying to remove the keel bolts on a Dragon I did once - I actually was jacking the boat in the air to try to move the bloody things... |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 19 Aug 09 at 8:27am
Ian, I had exactly this problem a few weeks back because the pin bit in the thing had gone wobbly (sorry for the overuse of technical jargon). I struggled for ages then got the above from a local olde worlde hardware shoppe and they did the job along with a lot of sweat and cursing and a box spanner thing sold by Halfords for bikes. This did the trick, but putting the thing back together again has been just as much fun... ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 20 Aug 09 at 11:24am
|
I think Ian's rant here is quite justified as the Europe class rules state that the rudder fittings should allow rudders to be interchangeable between boats. So selling a stock as a Europe stock when the bottom fitting is incorrect is a bit rubbish. I find those right angled screw drivers to be a pain, I would use a screwdriver bit held in a 1/4 inch spanner and pack under the bit with some wood against the other side of the stock, a clamp could be used to hold the whole thing tight if required. The nuts could then be removed with a spanner. The thing with cross head screws is that there a re a lot of different styles and the wrong type of screwdriver will just not bite, need to try several sizes and styles to get the best fit before starting. ------------- If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right |
Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 24 Aug 09 at 7:22am
|
You've got a measurement certificate with the new stock I assume?!? Non? Who ever sold you that stock as a Europe stock has seen you off! ------------- I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e! |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 24 Aug 09 at 11:13am
|
Having recently gone through similar problems with my RS700 stock ( although I didnt need to switch the gudgeon with a pintle), I eventually hacksawed the nuts off the countersunk bolts, and then tapped the remains back through the hole.
I then drilled out all the holes oversize, filled the countersink in the inside of the stock with some little tapered packers and bolted it all back together with the nuts on the inside! The other problems I have come across before are that the sea-sure gudgeons and pintles dont seem to maintain the same hole pattern very long, the last one I bought was 1/2 a hole out on all holes and needed significant work to fit. I was even tempted to try and weld it all together! |