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How important are smooth foils

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=536
Printed Date: 13 Aug 25 at 2:39pm
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Topic: How important are smooth foils
Posted By: redback
Subject: How important are smooth foils
Date Posted: 09 Mar 05 at 10:19pm

I've just spent a lot of time doing up the foils on my Laser4000.  What prompted me was the extreme care the International14 guys expend on their foils.  Being tippy - especially with the board up - we tend to come ashore with half board and whip it out as soon as it touches but this does mean a bit of abrasion on the bottom leading edge.  Similarly the rudder gets released but has to hit the bottom to tip it up - again resulting in a slightly flattened leading edge at the bottom.

How do the 14s get ashore and keep their foils so good, or do they refinish them each week?

How important is it to have smooth foils? Does anybody have any experience which will help quantify this?




Replies:
Posted By: Blobby
Date Posted: 10 Mar 05 at 12:32am
Read Mr Bethwaite's book - he wrote about 5 pages on the merits of mirror polished foils for reducing drag and increasing the maximum lift force available before ventilation and stalling...


Posted By: James Bell
Date Posted: 10 Mar 05 at 8:26am

The thing to remember about foils is that even though they're relatively small compared to the sails, they're operating in water which is 800 times the density of air. So a well finished foil is undoubtably an effective way to better boat speed.

Having said that, maybe I should pay some attention to my own foils. The guy who I bought my 4000 off was also a windsurfer and spray painted the daggerboard luminous orange! Very good for when you capsize and also for those screaming reaches when the daggerboard is partially out of the water.

The practical answer to damaged foils is to have a training set that can be dinged etc, and a special pristine/as new set for those more important races.



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IOS Sailing Community - http://www.iossc.org.uk/" rel="nofollow - www.iossc.org.uk


Posted By: Adam84
Date Posted: 10 Mar 05 at 9:56am

The thing you have to remember with the foils and the hull is the more perfect the finish the more effective the foils will be. A boat builder once tried explaining this to me by saying a chip or bit of damage will have a similar effect to weed in that it will disturb the flow of the water over the foils which will create more drag and slow you down (obviously not to the same extent as weed but every little counts), so anything you can do to improve this will be beneficial.



Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 10 Mar 05 at 11:08am

Yeah foils are very important, but then again so many things are. take for example you rudder if you move it by 5degrees this has the same effect as outting you leg in the wwater to slow you down, why it is so important to use as little rudder as posible. get everything else up to perfect level and then do the foils, it will only make a diference if the rest of the boat and sailing is up the that standard.



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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/


Posted By: Adam84
Date Posted: 10 Mar 05 at 11:17am

I agree with that. You need to get everything up to the best standard possible weather it may be your boat or sailing skills, however don’t make the mistake of thinking “I don’t need to do that its only a small thing” because all the little things add up to a big thing, bringing you foils up to a good standard may gain you a few boat lengths and in a close race could make all the difference.



Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 10 Mar 05 at 11:25am
Yeah but you can loose more from having bad sailing than through having a bad boat. But as soon as you have that sorted you canb gain boat lengths from all your boat being perfect.

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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/


Posted By: Adam84
Date Posted: 10 Mar 05 at 11:38am

Yeah sailing skills are definitely the thing to worry about first but once you get your sailing up to scratch, good boat preparation will win you races.



Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 10 Mar 05 at 11:45am
Yeah, but it is important to look after your boat, all the way through otherwise when you get good you will have to spend lots of moeny/time to improve the boat enough. Just get sailing and learn how things feel and once you can sail by feel you will know if the foils or anything are getting worse as the boat will feel diferent. PS its also good for when you want to think about tactics to be able to sail by feel.

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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/


Posted By: Dave S
Date Posted: 10 Mar 05 at 4:03pm
Originally posted by redback

How do the 14s get ashore and keep their foils so good, or do they refinish them each week?

By being very careful! Actually, it probably makes more difference with our laminar-flow sections because there's a tangible benefit to keeping everything laminar, whereas with a turbulent-flow section (which I assume the production boats have) there's much less downside. But a good 14 crew is super-careful with the foils, and is willing to get very wet in order to avoid pranging them. If you sail in with the board half-way up and jump out when the water's still 4 feet deep you should be absolutely fine. At an unfamiliar venue, use other crews who have already jumped out to gauge the depth.

We do also do a fair bit of sailing in Chichester Harbour, where running aground is much more likely and can happen at considerable speed. Options here are to take less risks when travelling at speed or where you believe the bottom may be hard, and to pay close attention to other boats! It is often better to be twin wiring when you hit the bottom because the board only has to absorb the momentum of a relatively light boat (helm and crew go round the forestay). But 14 boards are pretty well-built so even a big crash just tends to wipe out the bottom couple of inches, which are relatively easy to reconstruct (an hour or two's work).

As an aside, the Ovi 1 14 was (some time ago) sold with a stock 49er board, which was pretty useless. Just about everyone threw it in the attic and had a decent one built, and it made a massive difference!

Cheers,

Dave



Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 10 Mar 05 at 4:19pm
regardless of the type of section the board has a smoothe surface will improve performance.  With a turbulent section a smothe surface will promote a stable lamina sub-boundry layer which will be just as efficient as a a lamina section, or even better, see my posts in the Dinghy Yarns section. 

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FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen


Posted By: Dave S
Date Posted: 10 Mar 05 at 4:38pm

Actually, no. A laminar flow section operating in its laminar flow bucket will have lower drag than a similar turbulent-flow section. One way to illustrate this is to think of all the small-scale movements inherent in a turbulent flow. The energy to create these movements must have come from somewhere, and it is extracted from the kinetic energy of the foil as drag.

The big deal with laminar sections is that they can get a lot draggier outside the laminar flow bucket, so there's a real incentive to keep them within it. With a turbulent-flow section you don't get the same step change (even though it may be more efficient than the laminar flow section outside its bucket) so the incremental cost of imperfections is smaller.

Dave



Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 10 Mar 05 at 7:42pm
It's amazing the slowing effect ( and sideways drift ) when you get even a small bit of weed stuck on the board - this effect is noticeable when it's only weed on a small proportion of the board length.
So smooth surface ( and of couse the right shape ) is essential.


Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 10 Mar 05 at 7:51pm
Yeah do have to argee with the weed thing. soo annoying.

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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/


Posted By: sailor.jon
Date Posted: 11 Mar 05 at 9:12am
it must have been annoying for the sailor in the vende globe knowing they had large amounts of kelp or what ever tangled around there keels, and not been able to get it off,

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Jon
Vortex 1169
http://www.yorkshiredales.sc/ - Yorkshire Dales Sailing Club


Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 11 Mar 05 at 9:31pm
And if you've got crap lumpy foils - you'll never know how fast you could be going.
But this also may partly explain boat speed difference between the ends of the fleet.
If you have nice foils you can tell when they are not working right ( ie weed!) but the problem in a fleet is deciding whether to stop and clear the weed, or continue at a slower speed without stopping.


Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 11 Mar 05 at 10:33pm
Yeah so annoying, even more annoying when that lake is covered in it. (our 200 open) soooo horrible.

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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/



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