When we are training new comers we often sail the boat 2 up. I have sailed my boat with 26 stone on board with no problem ...

here is an example from the recent training at Rutland ...

http://www.mustoskiff.com/images/events/2008/rutland/2up300.jpg">

Got me thinking of what would happen if you upgraded the rig with a jib & mast head kite and added another trapeze and you end up with a light weight couples twin trap boat. Bit of a XX concept I guess but with a different starting point ...

Same, hull, foils, mast, boom, bowsprite, wings etc ... just add a few bits of string, a new set of sails and your girlfriend or wife (or vice versa).

NOTE: this is nothing to do with Ovis, Musto or the MPSCA just a daft idea really for interest ...

Sounds like an intersting idea, would the mast stand it?

Or, you could by an F16 if your club allows Cats.....

Dunno ... I think it probably would as it is a very strong section; you'd need to add uppers for a mast head kite ... I am sure the nice chaps at Selden could advise ...

Funny, I mis-read that initially as "your gifted girlfriend". Given that stability characteristics of the MPS (esp. if you add a bigger, heavier rig), I think I may have hit on appropriate wording...

Still, an interesting idea. I know the Contenders did try it for fun, but the low hounds imposed a very short-luff jib, so it looked a bit odd. Hull-wise, I'd have thought the Contender a better basis for a two-up conversion.

You'd have to put the boom on the gnav gooseneck and use a conventional vang - you could use one of those Harken laser 15:1 jobbies.

I am doing a Photoshop hack up to show what I mean .... watch this space ...

We find that with an extra body on body in the boat is much easier to handle; more stable and things happen slower ... so great for training ...

The rig would only be increased in weight by bigger sails; I propose useing the same mast & boom ... minimal kit change .. flip modes in 15 minutes

This is kinda what I had in mind ...

Downwind version coming ....

Originally posted by winging it Originally posted by Medway Maniac Still, an interesting idea. I know the Contenders did try it for fun, but the low hounds imposed a very short-luff jib, so it looked a bit odd. Hull-wise, I'd have thought the Contender a better basis for a two-up conversion. Good heavens no!  There isn't actually much room at all in a contender cockpit.  I sailed mine quite recently with my gifted girlfriend along for the ride and there just wasn't enough space.  I struggle sometimes to get me under the boom (especially if I forget to let off the kicker ) never mind two of us!

Have you tried light wind tacking (in front of the mainsheet) yet? Good for entertaining the rest of the fleet but demonstrates how small a 7' cockpit really is... and the end of the tiller extension reaches to every inch of it which has lead to at least 1 partner with a black eye.

Originally posted by Alistair426 So, what's the USP of this RS 800 you've just invented?

Can you sail an 800 singlehanded?

Originally posted by Alistair426 So, what's the USP of this RS 800 you've just invented?

MPS2 can be sailed as an MPS ... so crew this weekend, then just put up a different set of sails ...

This gives 2 good boats for the price of one (and a bit for the second set of sails)

Originally posted by Matt Jackson Originally posted by Alistair426 So, what's the USP of this RS 800 you've just invented? Can you sail an 800 singlehanded?

No, but it appears that, with the jib, you can't sail the Musto singlehanded either.

here's the downwind hack up ...

Relative to the 800, the below would have a slightly bigger kite and be quite a bit lighter ....

Originally posted by Guest#260 Originally posted by Alistair426 So, what's the USP of this RS 800 you've just invented? MPS2 can be sailed as an MPS ... so crew this weekend, then just put up a different set of sails ... This gives 2 good boats for the price of one (and a bit for the second set of sails)

In all seriousness, I think it would be an excellent idea, particularly for 'occasional' use. Looks way smarter than the RS.

Originally posted by Alistair426 Originally posted by Matt Jackson Originally posted by Alistair426 So, what's the USP of this RS 800 you've just invented? Can you sail an 800 singlehanded? No, but it appears that, with the jib, you can't sail the Musto singlehanded either.

Eh? If you take your standard MPS you can sail it as an MPS ... what I'm suggesting is that with a different set of sails and a bit of rigging you get an MPS2 ... which of course can revert to an MPS with no problem, remove the sails and rigging and rerig with the standard MPS sails ... switch between MPS & MPS2 in just 15 minutes ...

Same sock; use a triple patch kite, the existing chute is very generous for the existing kite.

Halyard, have an additional block on the mast head that you attach when you flip to MPS2 mode. So the top 1.5m of kite halyard would be external ...

Originally posted by Iain C Oh look...Rick's designed a slightly longer Cherub...

The point is that it's a simple switch between two handed and single handed ... can't do that with a Cherub can you?

I managed it...and that's not photoshopped...

yeah, any 2 man boat can be sailed one up.

Anyway I'm just messing around ... another set of sails could allow me to use my boat in another way ... just wondered what people thought of the idea ...

It's quite a cool idea Rick.

You can sail a cherub single handedly quite easily as long as it isn't too windy. If you really wanted you could get a smaller main (I have!) and take it out in a bit more breeze.

Single handed Aussie Cherub (similar to FS) being sailed 1 up. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tMOUar32Cz4 - http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tMOUar32Cz4

I genuinely think it would be a useful addition to the MPS, adding versatility, provided that the 'original'  boat wouldn't have to be compromised by adding weight through extra reinforcement that it doesn't need now with only one person on board.

Are there any high-performace dual mode boats out there?

Rick it's an interesting idea, the Cherub shot above was quite a handful as the main is boom sheeted (no room for a jammer in such a short boat) so it was kite and main in one hand which was "interesting".

I think you may however require quite a bit more standing rigging on the mast as the loads of more sail area plus more weight might overload the current setup.

Also, not sure what it would go like upwind as your COE will move forward of the designed CLR so you might have lots of lee helm, not nice driving from the wire with the stick trying to push you off all the time.  Ditto when the kite is up...you could sail it on it's ear 12' skiff style but it's a chined boat so it will feel horrible.

Intersting though...why don't you build it?

The added roach on the main should balance the jib ... plus you may need a set of v12 uppers to throw on for the kite ...

The development of the sails would be quite costly so it's not a project for me, busy tinkering with my bike

Ah, just re-read it, you are proposing a new main too for doubleanded work.

Assuming mast and boom dimensions are maintained, the only way to get the area in would be to have a bigger roach, which again might cause all kinds of problems in terms of making it nasty to tack and fun on the bearaways.  Unless you physically move the mast in relation to the board, I think COE/CLR and jib area will be your downfall here.  Need someone who really knows the sums to look at it.

Other issue is that if it's just for messing around in with your other half, and you'll need to spend what I assume to be at least couple of grand on main, kite and jib, plus track, kicker, and the conversion work, you are well into 2nd hand Cherub/I14/B14/Spice/Boss territory without compromising your MPS...

Edit...you boys type too fast!

With a 13.5sqm main, and only 3sqm in the jib, the jib will hardly move the CofE at all but give loads of benefits including the slot effect and keeping the crew out of mischief.

Thats only 18% of the total area in the jib. (Most boats are about a quarter to a third)

Infact, I think with the increased main area and addition of a jib I'd expect them to balance each other out as far as feel goes. Remember you can fine tune by raking the mast.

what was holding the tiller

 like pet ...

That's what I thought ... seems to be OK on the back of a fag packet ...

29er single handed, must be 5 years old this photos now, but it was great fun if a little tricky (only one tiller extention).  Blindingly fast though considering how little wind there was)

A-ha.  Someone who has actually bothered to read the thread properly and do the maths...nice one!

Give it a go then Rick...could be a laugh.  Have a word with Topper, see what they learnt with the Topaz!

(Joking...interesting idea...it's,just whether people would buy one...)

Cheeky b*rds, I'll have you know I don't have enough hair to go to T&G's anymore!

and cloning is too easy now!!

and before someone says it, yes the boat would probably sink under two of me yada, yada, yada......

Yeat it is Tynemouth in the background, and that 29er had a small fight with the rocks there a few months after this shot was taken. 

theres only one Graeme Oliver, one Graeme O l ..i v ..e r........

Graeme - run us through the boat dialogue you would have between yourself before and during a scary windy gybe. Or maybe the pep talk between Graeme & Graeme before a big race. Speach or telepathy? Which one of you is helming? and is it the helm or crew calling tactics? Who gets the hot chick? Do you think teaming up with yourself would work?

Ben McGrane can do both winning Fball nats as crew and RS800 nats as helm, so must rate quite highly here.

Simon Hiscocks- you are successful both crewing and helming the 49er, but could you team up with yourself?

Would the Sten be effective crewing for himself?

appart from other things, like the spinnaker, I would need someone extra to remember the bung.

I would try and explain but the southern contingent would never understand (they struggle with one of me!) I suspect it would sound a bit like the freddy tapes - http://www.mustoskiff.com/reports-and-news/0thers/freddy-tapes.htm - http://www.mustoskiff.com/reports-and-news/0thers/freddy-tap es.htm

All I can say is that the boat wouldn't be the quietest!

and I'm not so sure Nat would put up with two of me!

I think it will go somthing like this ...

She might like it!

Great art work Rick!

This is an exciting idea and I think we need to organise a regatta. Say 2011 to get the cloning technology into place. GraemeO already has the jump on the fleet. Identical twins need not apply. What boat? MPS2? Ideal weight? What do we do with the clones during the week? - maybe they could do the boatwork and go to the gym!

Just imagine Barnsie crewing for Barnsie ...

now you are just being silly

edit; polite version

http://www.imageshack.us - www.imageshack.us

Upload it on there and just copy/paste the code thing.

Bigger rudder? That's the last thing I would want on a boat that is going to be faster.

after looking through the ideas i've got to quite like the idea,

i've been looking for a 1/2 person skiff and the idea is quite briiliant,

i just happen to know some boat builders along with the guy who designd topaz so i'll get back to you after lots of thought and checking out a musto myself.

it was partly designed by the whites (designed the tornado,hurricane,spitfire) main designer won olympic gold medal.

only boat that will beat oppies and mirrors regulary on handicap and will out run any non cat or skiff boat with the variations i've done.

So what would you suggest people without £10-20k handy do?

Dave, that's the biggest load of arse I've ever heard spouted out on this forum even by Grumf standards. You can't genuinely think that?!  A friend of mine is just putting the finishing touches on his new Cherub and he reckons he has spent 12K top wack on a top spec boat. He's a self confessed cheque book sailor and I would say that’s a bit of bargain when you consider what the equivalent SMODs costs new. This is with 3 t-foils, two sets of sails, trolley, road trailer, covers blah blah blah.

You don't need to update your boat every 4 years, it's a complete myth! ‘Suicide Blonde at the 2007 nations came 3rd and it's a modified bistro which is 20 something years old. ‘Cheese Before Bedtime’ has been top 5 at the nationals for the last few years and is also a modified old boat (both boats are up for sale btw!). Ratface sailed ‘The Flying Kipper’ (same design as C.B.B) into 5th place on the first day with a 97 rules rig.

The nationals this year were won in a boat which was designed several years ago and there have been several more designs since.

So you think the right way for a development class to progress is to poor money into and bottomless carbon pit? Yeah, that’s the way to go about developing boats...not building, experimenting, designing things yourself, that would just be plain stupid wouldn't it.

RE-Cherub way of thinking. My way of thinking is,

'Hmmm, why should I pay some big boat building company for a product that doesn’t really build the things I want, doesn’t build them light enough and are made of recycled poop then make me pay a ludicrous sum of money for it. I can do it myself for a fraction of the cost. It will be lighter, stronger (if done properly), and ultimately just a lot better and more satisfying.'

It's also quite a lot of fun when you actually have to think about the boat your building and sailing rather than just purchasing it off the shelf. Learning why a boat goes fast rather than just learning how to make it go fast. Ultimately once you know what’s going on in the boat and why you'll go faster anyway because you have a far deeper understanding of what’s going and it's a lot more satisfying!

I think for me now, turning up on a Sunday morning to go sailing in a SMOD would just be a bit boring. Going home knowing that I couldn't do anything about things I didn't like.

'I've set up the rig according to tuning guide on the website told me to do. Now what do I do?’

Knowing that I couldn't do anything more would just frustrate me.

Turning up and sailing the Cherub then going home and thinking about why something happened or what I did or didn't like about it. How did the rig feel? How did it feel to helm? Is there anything I could do to improve or change it? 'That’s a crap idea, I CAN change that!' It’s all part of what sailing Cherubs is about, for me (and many others) anyway.

There's nothing to stop you going and buying Cherub pats of the shelf. Bloodaxe and Aardvark will build you a boat and you can just go and buy your sails, spars and foils off the shelf as well. Expensive? More so than doing it yourself and cheaper than an RS 800! Satisfying? In my opinion, no.

Rant over...

sorry guys but his argument/discussion does not really belong on this thread. please take it somewhere else. alternatively you can kiss, make up and be friends again???

i think gladys may have exaggerated a bit with his vibe. we all do this because we love our boats so please guys just tone it down a bit.

as jim says, development sailing is winning with your mind. however there are other elements involved. for example can a professional company build a boat better, stronger or lighter? they may well have more experience/ expertise so really pure development must be a combination of innovation and professional input in order to produce the best product you can.

Jim sorry I don't understand this statement, as you need to have a reasonable wedge of money behind you to race any development class. I appreciate what the Cherub guys are doing their methodology and I am all for it but carbon isn't cheap in what ever guise.

Surely the cost of a new sail per year for a SMOD (even at the high prices SMOD sails are) is more cost effective that the time costs and material costs involved in heavily modifying a boat every time there is a distinctive performance gain?

Originally posted by Merlinboy I like my boats like i like my ladies, no implants or botox, just as nature intended.

sound like a fan of brazillian things russ

Yawn ...

Oh god no....  You should know better than that

Just to let everyone know for I'm a 13 year old sailor having to pay for my own boat.

It's been difficult to even keep sailing so no i don't think vibe bashing is permitted.

And i ask any of you where would the future in sailing be if younger people didn't start unless thier parents financed it?

When i'm not walking dogs or doing a paper round or washing cars or mowing lawns i'm draging a boat 500 yards down a bumpy road with a flat tyre on the trolley then coming halfway up the leader board in some handicap races.

Not bad for someone who's only been sailing years huh?

i know how you feel about financing it yourself. i have done since 15. as for walking 500yards. haha. at llandudno we spend about 15mins dragging our boats down the prom to the slipway and the same back (unless you are lazy and tow it)

edit: i thought you were 14? now your 13? mabe im missing something here

Sorry it gets annoying,

Anyway would a 29er jib fit?

I used to own a 29er before I bought an MPS and used to regularly sail it single handed. Raced with it in that mode at club level too. The main problems that i faced were easing the jib whilst going upwind in a blow and not having a cleat for the main sheet downwind. But I got fairly pratcied at holding two ropes at once. A flick flack off the boom cleat would have made life so much easier though!

perhaps the system they used on the swift solo would enable the jib to be controlled upwind- but I have never really figured out how it works.

The only time it took to go from single handed to double handed was the time it took to swap the twin 1.6m tiller extensions I had on it for the normal 1.3m ones- 30secs!

Thisn thread has lost it's way a bit.

The MPS2 concept is to switch the boat from a single handed boat to a two person boat. Like the below, rather than to just sail a 2 person boat without the crew which of course has been done ...

I'm not offering anything .. just an idea that with a kit of bits I could use my Musto for 2 person sailing as well ...

Will the hull have been engineered with the rig loads in mind that adding a jib will entail?  That would have been an odd thing to do unless the 2 man version was on the stocks from day 1.

Mike