RS Vision or Topper Omega?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Choosing a boat
Forum Discription: Ask any questions about the sport!
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4830
Printed Date: 06 Aug 25 at 3:34pm
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Topic: RS Vision or Topper Omega?
Posted By: NathanL
Subject: RS Vision or Topper Omega?
Date Posted: 03 Nov 08 at 7:34pm
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Hi all, first post! I have been reading a great deal on this forum- it looks like a great place to get help and advice. Re my actual query, I have searched just about everything I can on Google and in particular this site when trying to decide on my 'family' boat (I have just sold my Laser having sailed them for about 15 years). I'm pretty sure I am set on either the Vision or the Omega but I just can't make a firm decision no matter how hard I try. I have previously been set on each of them but keep changing my mind! I want a boat that I can sail single-handed if needed and I have read that the Omega can be a bit of a handful, even reefed, but I like the appeal of the size of the cockpit in the Omega. The Vision seems to tick most of the boxes, other than the fact that it seems it might get a bit more cramped when I get my two kids in there with myself and the wife. OK, the kids are young at the mo (4 and 3) but I'm hoping to have the eldest out on the water before he's 5 and the same with the youngest. I have also read that the Vision would be more 'tippy' which to be honest I want to try and limit as much as possible. 'Get a cat' I hear you say and I would agree were it not for the fact that holding onto kiddies will be more of a concern in say something like a Dart16 which I would probably think about when the kids are 8~9+. I guess the best option would be to get a sail in both boats but that's easier said than done. Theres none of either at my last club! I know that the Vision/Omega/Laser2000etc choice has been done to death a bit but I'm hoping that I've missed something from any threads that I've seen so far. Laser2000 is just too expensive, Stratos is just too big (and heavy!). Wayfarers- well- I'm sure they are a good boat but...... just no. Someone please help me decide before I go out of my mind! Cheers, Nathan |
Replies:
Posted By: Ross
Date Posted: 03 Nov 08 at 7:38pm
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Omegas are truly HORRIBLE boats. We had them at work and while they are low maintainence they feel very cheap, very nasty and they are terrible to sail. RS products seem to be much better than Toppers but I havn't seen Vision so I can't comment on it.
------------- Ross If you can't carry it, don't sail it! |
Posted By: Webmuppet
Date Posted: 03 Nov 08 at 7:41pm
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What about a Laser Bahia? - very easy to reef, similar format to a Vision but slightly bigger and a more modern design that the Omega........might be worth trying to get a test sail in one. It's not long 'til the Boat Show and Dinghy Show and there's bound to be a few deals to be done if you're after a new boat, Nigel ------------- I am the milkman of human kindness, I will leave an extra pint (Billy Bragg) Graduate 2530 'Galaxy' |
Posted By: foaminatthedeck
Date Posted: 03 Nov 08 at 7:53pm
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How about looking at GP14 or Larks for a cheeper alternative. IMHO the Vision is better than the Omega.
------------- Lark 2170 |
Posted By: radixon
Date Posted: 03 Nov 08 at 8:04pm
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It would assist by informing us of your budget. The Vision is the better of the two (Omega/Vision) because it is better made and second hand are available. For that reason the Omega and the Bahia (as mentioned) are not as easy to shift selling second hand. The Bahia is new to the market and I would suggest a test sail, I wouldn't part with my cash for one, that is after sailing it. You may find on this occasion that a Wayfarer is suitable because of the room it has and the availability of boats. It depends where and what type of sailing oyu are intending to do. They are widely available and also at varying prices dependin on age. Most though are good solid boats. ------------- |
Posted By: NathanL
Date Posted: 03 Nov 08 at 8:05pm
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Wow quick replies! Anything Laser seems to be out of my price range..... I will have about £4~5k tops so must be secondhand too. I agree that the GP14/Larks etc will all still be good boats but I just feel like I want a 'new design' boat. Thats not meant to sound snooty, I just prefer modern stuff. Other than that it seems the Vision is getting more favour than the Omega, especially as it seems that Ross has first hand experience. I must say though, can a modern boat REALLY be that bad?! What was wrong with them Ross? I will take a look at the Bahia but fell it will be out of my price range... Cheers |
Posted By: NathanL
Date Posted: 03 Nov 08 at 8:10pm
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Gaa! Bahia is £5195 retail so would be do-able secondhand on my budget. Ferchrissakes thats 3 boats I have on the list now! I knew I shouldn't have posted on here! Looks like the Omega maybe dropping off the list soon I think though. |
Posted By: Villan
Date Posted: 03 Nov 08 at 8:20pm
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NO!! Not a Bahia!! Please, Save yourself. We have a few, broken 3 rudder pins, a centerboard ... All in 3 months ... It seems the Bahia is lasers "OHMIGAWD LDC and Topper are making more boats than us .. Quick ... Rush something out! " idea over a pint. It weighs about 8 tonnes and is as ugly .. well .. as an ugly thing! Vision felt SO much better when I sailed it ... But you still cant beat a good, old fasioned, Wayfarer. Also take a look at the Leader. Slightly scaled down Wayfarer. ------------- Vareo - 149 "Secrets" http://www.TandyUKServers.co.uk" rel="nofollow - TandyUK Servers |
Posted By: feva sailor
Date Posted: 03 Nov 08 at 8:56pm
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RS vission
unless you want to learn how to drive an aircraft carrier then get the omega |
Posted By: HannahJ
Date Posted: 03 Nov 08 at 9:23pm
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Afraid I'm another for the old-school variety. Wayfarer or GP14, nicely balanced, easy to singlehand. I find the Vision very heavy on the steering, somewhat overpowered even when reefed, and... just looks too much like a training boat, whereas the new Wayfarers and GP14s look quite snazzy. I'd try them out, of the new ones seems like the Vision is your man, but from personal experience I just wouldn't...
------------- MIRROR 64799 "Dolphin" The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist hopes it will change; the realist adjusts the sail |
Posted By: radixon
Date Posted: 03 Nov 08 at 9:56pm
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I'd agree with Villian on the Bahia comments. Scribble the Bahia of the list 100 times over and write Stratos instead! But you say you want a boat to sail singlehanded. Any boat can be sailed SH but only in light winds. I'd say get a ride in something, the other thing you haven't mentioned is your location. Us lot are spread all over so I am sure someone will be able to assist in recommending a place. ------------- |
Posted By: Webmuppet
Date Posted: 03 Nov 08 at 10:07pm
We've got 'em as teaching boats and I'm not aware of any breakages - what on earth do you do to them ?!  Laser are advertising a 'sale day' later this month which includes Bahias from £4750 which is cheaper than the Vision XL. I think that I prefer the Vision too but the Bahia is just a bit roomier. ......or what about a Wanderer ? small, but a nice family boat ? Nigel ------------- I am the milkman of human kindness, I will leave an extra pint (Billy Bragg) Graduate 2530 'Galaxy' |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 04 Nov 08 at 12:12am
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I'd guess that the Vision is the best of the plastic boats you're considering, but like Hannah, I find it very heavy on the helm and on the mainsheet - it's a pretty crude device. Try one then try a modern Wayfarer and you'll see what I mean - the Wayfarer feels positively sophisticated by comparison. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: NathanL
Date Posted: 04 Nov 08 at 9:17am
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I'm quite surprised just how many people (not just on this forum) who prefer the old school boats. And then I'm wondering whether they could really be so much better than modern design and construction methods or it's the nostalgia talking! I will take a look at the GP14 though- I'm open to any suggestions- but my first impressions are that the GP wont be as roomy as say a Vision? I will be sailing from East Mersea, Essex so the boat will be getting yanked up on a sand/stone shore. That said I'm pretty careful with my boats- I sailed my Laser at Stone (Nr Bradwell Power Station) for some time which for those that have never sailed there is quite...well.....stony. My Laser was in excellent condition even after several years there. It seems the Vision is still a preferable choice over the Bahia, all duly noted. If I could get a sail in any of them I would be very grateful. I live in Billericay so could travel throughout the south east coast up to say Clacton or as far south as say Whitstable. I have my own kit so you wouldn't have to provide anything except your favourite choice of tipple so I can give my thanks! |
Posted By: Riki @ RS
Date Posted: 04 Nov 08 at 10:04am
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Hi Nathan PM me your details, I'll arrange a test sail in a Vision locally and fill in any info gaps (though theres lots of good advice here). I've got new and used boats in budget. Cheers Riki ------------- Riki Hooker Sales Director, RS Sailing www.rssailing.com |
Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 04 Nov 08 at 10:19am
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many of the old school boats will deal well with the stony beach, we have a wayfarer at our club and the bloke has figured out a way of launching and recovering the boat on his own, and it deals with the stones very well, there hulls are very well built and the same with the GP14 except its not quite to spacious, i think if you buy a modern "plasic" boat you will find you will be forever having problems with them on that sort of beach with stones in the slot .etc.
------------- Laser 184084 Tasar 3501 RS600 698 RS600 782 |
Posted By: radixon
Date Posted: 04 Nov 08 at 11:05am
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Bradwell Outdoors are an RS Academy so I am sure they could allow a test sail from their centre. We at Marconi have most of the boats you are considering but have now packed up (or moved the boats) for the winter. Good luck with your boat search ------------- |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 04 Nov 08 at 11:19am
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You have to remember that the "modern design and construction methods" you're considering in the case of the Omega/Vision are focussed on building the boats as cheaply as possible to maximise profit, not on making them perform or handle better. If you're talking modern design and construction methods that will give you a more satisfying sail, then you need to be looking at woven cloth (glass, Kevlar or carbon) and epoxy, vacuum bagged, not an over-sized washing-up bowl. On the other hand if you're planning lots of beaching, you don't necessarily want such sophisitication. But weight for weight, grp will provide a stiffer, more satisfying boat than moulded plastic, whatever the blurb in the glossy brochures says. Try a modern Wayfarer, and maybe Comet Trio (there's a serious new suggestion) before you buy anything. A long-time Wayfaring mate of mine just bought a 2000 this season - finds it OK; but he's ordered a new Hartley Wayfarer for next season! ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: dave.blakesley
Date Posted: 04 Nov 08 at 1:28pm
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Totally agree with villan about the bahia! Horrible to sail, horrible to drag
up a slipway, horrible to look at and (bit of a random one here!) horrible to reef. Bit of a complicated system when compared to a wayfarer or leader... Leader wouldnt be a bad idea, especially as you can an assym version if you want some thrills and spills long the way! BLYM has a few if you want a test sail and so does stanborough park (SPAC) iirc (they may have got rid of them since i last sailed there...) I sailed the vision at UKSA last time i was there (a loooong time ago!) and found them to be stable, reasonably roomy and a nice boat to sail. We had 3/4 large lads in them and they were still good fun! (this was waaay before my B14 days! lol). ------------- |
Posted By: NathanL
Date Posted: 04 Nov 08 at 6:11pm
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Posted By: NathanL
Date Posted: 04 Nov 08 at 6:15pm
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Well, going by the specs above (Vision is in brackets) the Trio is amazingly close to the Vision. Possibly a contender (no pun) except that I don't think the Trio can take an outboard? Call me sad but that's actually a bonus for me, for when it's dead calm and/or I really can't be bothered to sail and just want a potter round the coastline. I haven PM'd Riki for a test sail of a Vision, lets see what happens. I think I've ruled out the Omega now, as well as the Bahia, so I think I'm getting somewhere! |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 04 Nov 08 at 6:27pm
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From the Comet Dinghies website http://www.cometdinghies.com/Comet-Trio.asp - http://www.cometdinghies.com/Comet-Trio.asp "optional extras such as front and rear lockers, fendering, oars and outboard motor make the Trio a classy cruising dinghy" ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 04 Nov 08 at 6:37pm
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My knee still hasn't recovered from rudderless sailing in a Bahia...
------------- Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile" |
Posted By: NathanL
Date Posted: 04 Nov 08 at 7:24pm
Good find, thats kept the Trio in the runnings for the moment although having just seen the much higher retail price (£6750) compared to the Vision I'm not sure it will stay in unless there are copious s/h ones going for the same sort of money I can get a Vision for. Just another thought- the Trio has a smooth hull whereas I see the Vision has 'grooves'- sorry I forget the technical term.... would that make the Vision a little bit less tippy do you think? As for the Trio oar option, not sure I'd want to be rowing a 140kg boat! |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 04 Nov 08 at 7:24pm
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I've done loads of teaching in a trio and found them to be really good boats. Great for taking out three or four complete beginners, trapeze option, assymetric if you want one, fore or aft sheeting, loads of space, options to reef. However They would be more than a bit heavy to haul up a slipway on your own, nor would I really want to be out in one single handed in much over a f2 - they are big boats - and I'm not a light weight by any stretch! I think it's a mistake to dismiss what you call the 'old school' designs so lightly. The reason why there are still so many wayfarers, wanderers, GPs Ents etc still around is because they are a design that really works and has stood the test of time. They are raced and sailed everywhere right now and will be around a lot longer than many of the 'modern' boats such as those mass produced by topper and laser. That's why so many of the well informed sailors in this forum are recommending them. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: NathanL
Date Posted: 06 Nov 08 at 8:23pm
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On the contrary, I haven't dismissed the older boats at all and I'm sorry if I came across that way. I was just surprised how many of them appear to win favour over the newer breed of boat. I'm no expert on this at all, I haven't sailed much else other than a Laser, a Sonata, a Shearwater, a Tornado and if I really go back, a Cadet. All of which are old designs and not having sailed one of the newer, crazy boats like say an RS600 (which just about flooded the dingy park at Stone at one point) I just made an assumption that a new design would be better. Especially as how an RS600 made me look like I was going backwards most of the time! OK, I know they are not the same class of boat but you get my drift. Notwithstanding that, I have been stunned many times by the reaching speed of a well-sailed Wayfarer which is why I can appreciate that newer is not always better. As it stands, I am down to either the Vision or the Trio. Both seem quite close in the runnings, but I take on board your comments re manhandling the Trio, which could be the decider. So, on that basis it looks like the Vision unless I can find any more information on the subject! So, thanks to all so far. I really appreciate not only the help but the time that you have taken to type out what are some quite lengthy replies which are detailed and highly informative. Hopefully one day I will be able to return my limited knowledge in some way to those less experienced than myself on this forum. Cheers, Nathan. |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 07 Nov 08 at 12:39am
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RS Vision 125kg hull weight, Trio 145kg - add pretty well equal weights of rig to both and that's a difference not as significant as a lick of grease on the trolley wheel bearings so far as moving about onshore is concerned. Good/bad balance on the trolley will make a similar difference. From my experience lugging our club Visions about on training days, I'd expect both boats will require a lot of muscle. Frankly, I didn't notice that the Vision felt any easier or any lighter to pull up the beach than the race-spec Wayfarer I sometimes crew - both are very hard work and need a similar number of bodies! ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 07 Nov 08 at 7:38am
| Would it be cynical to suggest that the RS quoted hull weight is the mass of plastic used in the mold, whilst the Comet's is more likely to include fittings? |
Posted By: Riki @ RS
Date Posted: 07 Nov 08 at 8:28am
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yep!... shot weight of powder in the mould is 115kg. There's not that many fittings on a Vision. I don't think the 125kg includes the centreboard though, I'd probably need to weigh one to find out! ------------- Riki Hooker Sales Director, RS Sailing www.rssailing.com |
Posted By: NathanL
Date Posted: 07 Nov 08 at 8:31am
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Agreed, not much in it all all, and push comes to the shove I could probably tow with a car up the slipway (which isn't where I really want to launch from). I'm still working on being able to launch from the beach area though. If I can't wangle it then I will need to use good old human power to drag the boat up the slipway or mess about trying to get a tow! I've still not ruled out the Comet, but I will need to monitor prices as the Comet is certainly more expensive to buy new. Too expensive really so it all comes down to what the residuals are doing. |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 07 Nov 08 at 11:48am
Apologies then! |