Pumping to accelerate off the start
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4768
Printed Date: 08 Aug 25 at 8:34am Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Pumping to accelerate off the start
Posted By: JohnW
Subject: Pumping to accelerate off the start
Date Posted: 15 Oct 08 at 1:43pm
Moved from the Video of the week thread:
Originally posted by tgruitt
Originally posted by thedinghysailor
Awesome coaching video:
http://www.sailgroove.org/videos/coverage/view_video/234176-technique-tuesdays/75342-episode-1-stop-and-go - Sailgroove Technique Tuesday |
Nice pump, I wouldn't do that on a light wind day!!
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EDIT: For those that can view the video, it shows a boat being accelerated off the start with the crew rolling the boat to leeward and then rocking back upright to accelerate it with a big pump.
I struggle to see how that technique is valid in any wind conditions. To my mind it is not consistent with rule 42.1:
Except when permitted in rule 42.3 or 45, a boat shall compete by using only the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her speed. Her crew may adjust the trim of sails and hull, and perform other acts of seamanship, but shall not otherwise move their bodies to propel the boat.
The
Higher & Faster "Startline" DVD shows a similar start technique
with Lasers, can someone enlighten me as to how this is legal as it
seems to be comon practice.
Thanks.
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Replies:
Posted By: Roy Race
Date Posted: 15 Oct 08 at 1:57pm
Hi John,
I believe that strictly speaking, there should be a course change at the same time as the "pump". This would be a course change from just below close-hauled to close-hauled. Then, you're 'cough', using the heel of the boat to assist with the course change 'cough' and then simply flattening it out afterwards.
If there's no course change, then yes, it's just a great big pump. However, I think the practice is so commonplace that it's become accepted however it's done.
If you watch the top Olympic sailors, they would always start the procedure heeled to leeward, sails flapping, well below close hauled.
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Posted By: KennyR
Date Posted: 15 Oct 08 at 2:23pm
Tactically - heeling to leeward before the start
discourages people from coming in close below you [even
though windward boat has to keep clear] and creates a
bit of room you can then accelerate the boat into.
Nothing prevents you using heel for these purposes and
nothing stops you flattening out afterwards. The 'shoot'
forward however is illegal, but I guess the PRO, jury
and your competitors are all just a bit too bust to
notice as the gun goes
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Posted By: Spyderman
Date Posted: 16 Oct 08 at 12:02am
This maneuver is an illegal pump and I would yellow flag this if appendix P was in effect. Specially because the boat was heeled to leeward before righting. With or without a course change.
------------- Are you interested in the Racing Rules of Sailing? Go to: http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com - http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com
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Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 16 Oct 08 at 12:11am
It's illegal under standard RRS.
BUT US collegiate racing have 'odd' rule 42 variations and this is a vide from Brown University. IIRC ooching is unlimited, so you have crews with double buoyancy aids on, ramming the mast with their shoulder like you're Martin Johnson trying to take down Jonah Lomu..
So I guess it might be something that's legal under US collegiate rules.
BUT what you will find is at most club racing / open meeting events you'll get away with it as some of your competitors will be doing the same, and others won't know what you are doing. Without on the water judging or a load of witnesses then it would be difficult to win in the room..
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Posted By: ChrisJ
Date Posted: 16 Oct 08 at 9:24pm
Are you not allowed "one pump per gust"?
It looks to me as though they are only doing 1/2 a roll: from well to leeward to upright. After that the boat is steady, upright and sailing.
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Posted By: JohnW
Date Posted: 16 Oct 08 at 9:45pm
Originally posted by ChrisJ
Are you not allowed "one pump per gust"?
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Not when sailing to windward and only to promote planing. Clearly not the case here. Rolling is only alowed to facilitate steering, again it does not seem to be the case in the video.
42.3 Exceptions (a) A boat may be rolled to facilitate steering. (b) A boat’s crew may move their bodies to exaggerate the rolling that facilitates steering the boat through a tack or a gybe, provided that, just after the tack or gybe is completed, the boat’s speed is not greater than it would have been in the absence of the tack or gybe. (c) Except on a beat to windward, when surfing (rapidly accelerating down the leeward side of a wave) or planing is possible, the boat’s crew may pull the sheet and the guy controlling any sail in order to initiate surfing or planing, but only once for each wave or gust of wind.
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Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 16 Oct 08 at 9:58pm
Even I would assume that was highly illegal, but i shall now go and learn to
perfect it. I especially like the bit where the crew over heels to get the full
rebound, the sheeting in timing must have to be pretty spot on I guess.
Almost as effective as the best form of illegal propulsion I've devised for
myself so far, and that is to rake the rudder thing right back to just before it
actually breaks the surface, then when you waggle the stick bit it acts like a
scull, highly irregular i should think, but useful to get yourself back uptide
or to base if the winds gone entirely, do it hard enough and you can almost
create a wake.
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Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 16 Oct 08 at 10:11pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.
Even I would assume that was highly illegal, but i shall now go and learn to
perfect it. I especially like the bit where the crew over heels to get the full
rebound, the sheeting in timing must have to be pretty spot on I guess.
Almost as effective as the best form of illegal propulsion I've devised for
myself so far, and that is to rake the rudder thing right back to just before it
actually breaks the surface, then when you waggle the stick bit it acts like a
scull, highly irregular i should think, but useful to get yourself back uptide
or to base if the winds gone entirely, do it hard enough and you can almost
create a wake.  |
Try sailing an oppy..they have swept back rudders and virtually the first thing the kids pickup is how to make them go by sculling...
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Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 16 Oct 08 at 10:34pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.
Even I would assume that was highly illegal, but i shall now go and learn to
perfect it. I especially like the bit where the crew over heels to get the full
rebound, the sheeting in timing must have to be pretty spot on I guess.
Almost as effective as the best form of illegal propulsion I've devised for
myself so far, and that is to rake the rudder thing right back to just before it
actually breaks the surface, then when you waggle the stick bit it acts like a
scull, highly irregular i should think, but useful to get yourself back uptide
or to base if the winds gone entirely, do it hard enough and you can almost
create a wake.  |
Superb way to knacker your blade and/or stock, mind.
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Posted By: tmoore
Date Posted: 16 Oct 08 at 11:33pm
and pintles
------------- Landlocked in Africa
RS300 - 410
Firefly F517 - Nutshell
Micro Magic RC yacht - Eclipse
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 17 Oct 08 at 8:29am
Does anyone have information about rule 42 changes in US collegiate sailing? I find it somewhat disconcerting that a whole branch of sailing is changing the rules so radically.
Looked more like seated air rowing than proper sailing - just like the standup air rowing that appears to be an Olympic sport now.
Gordon
------------- Gordon
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Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 17 Oct 08 at 9:14am
If the rules were not written by an American in America then they will ignore them
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Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 17 Oct 08 at 9:15am
Originally posted by alstorer
Originally posted by G.R.F.
Even I would assume that was highly illegal, but i shall now go and learn to perfect it. I especially like the bit where the crew over heels to get the full rebound, the sheeting in timing must have to be pretty spot on I guess.
Almost as effective as the best form of illegal propulsion I've devised for myself so far, and that is to rake the rudder thing right back to just before it actually breaks the surface, then when you waggle the stick bit it acts like a scull, highly irregular i should think, but useful to get yourself back uptide or to base if the winds gone entirely, do it hard enough and you can almost create a wake.  | Superb way to knacker your blade and/or stock, mind. |
How long before Grumps is back on here bleating that the rudder is poorly designed as it has broken ignoring the fact it's not designed to be an oar ...
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 17 Oct 08 at 10:29am
Found this on the college sailing website:
7.4 MEANS OF PROPULSION, RRS 42.
7.4.1 During and immediately after tacking or gybing, a boat’s crew may move their bodies to roll the boat, provided that the boat’s mast does not move aggressively away from the vertical more than once. Replaces RRS 42.3(b).
7.4.2 Except on a beat to windward, when surfing (rapidly accelerating down the leeward side of a wave) or planing is possible, ooching (sudden forward body movement, stopped abruptly) is permitted in order to initiate surfing or planning. RRS 42.2(c) is deleted.
As I read these rules the "stog and go" manoeuvre being taught in the video was illegal, even in college racing. Rule 69 anyone!
Gordon
------------- Gordon
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Posted By: Chew my RS
Date Posted: 12 Nov 08 at 12:48pm
Re ooching:
My experience at the RS200 Nationals was that ooching was common place in that class. The acceleration and place gains were incredible and I don't think there was a single protest on the matter.
------------- http://www.sailns14.org - http://www.sailns14.org - The ultimate family raceboat now available in the UK
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 12 Nov 08 at 1:21pm
I have been a judge at a few RS 200 events. Without judging rule 42 on the water I went out in a RIB and observed racing, whilst conspicuously displaying a JURY flag.
According to competitors, the mere fact of having a judge on the water improved rule observance, and there were a lot less rule 42 infringements. Competitor protests on rule 42 are often contentious and are dificult to judge. If competitors wish to have improved rule observance they should insist on organisers providing on the water judges with the authority to intervene.
Appendix P provides an adequate framework for rule 42 enforcement. Personally I would prefer, for Part 2 rule infringements, for there to be an umpiring system rather than a direst intervention by the judge. The umpire would respond to protest observed on the water -as in partially umpired team racing. If the umpire did not observe the incident the aggreived competitor would have the right to protest in the normal way.
There would of course be a cost -providing RIBS, fuel plus judges and umpires are well known for their large appetities and tremendous thirst! Would a few pounds extra entry fee be worth paying for such a service?
Gordon
------------- Gordon
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Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 13 Nov 08 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by gordon
There would of course be a cost -providing RIBS, fuel plus judges and umpires are well known for their large appetities and tremendous thirst! Would a few pounds extra entry fee be worth paying for such a service?
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The Contenders have to have International juries at their World and European Championships and having them doubles the entry fees! We now allow pumping over 10 knots so they do not have much to do that other competitors could do.
Then we have to watch them eat drink at sleep at our expense.
------------- Bonnie Lass Contender 1764
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 14 Nov 08 at 8:44am
Two points :
1. International Class status comes at a cost - one of which is the requirement to have an International Jury at major championships. I'm not convinced, however, that IJ need 4 star hotels, 1st class flights and Michelin star restaurants. It is possible to economise - the requirement is for 5 members, including 3 IJs. The Chairman is usually not from the host country and travel expenses will have to be paid, a "local" IJ is usually vice-chairman. Recruit another IJ from a country that Ryanair flies to, then a EUROSAF candidate and a "local" NJ who aspires to IJ status (these last 2 will pay their own travel expenses). Select club members who live within walking distance of the club (in anticipation of late night jury hearings and/or long discussions at the bar) and ask them to lodge the Jury members. Explain these terms to the judges - a few might politely refuse.
In my experience the most important thing to organise for the Jury is food - if they have been out on the water all day and then in the protest room until late in the evening the poor judges are hungry. Clubs should anticipate that this will happen.
2. I believe that the solution is to find more for the Jury to do. Many Judges now have experience of umpiring match or team racing. Umpires tend to get far more involved in the running of events, both on and off the water. I believe that Judges should follow this example rather than adopting a more distant stance. In my experience competitors appreciate this, and do not complain that Judges are too involved when it comes to a hearing.
I agree that it must be galling for organisers to have a panel of judges who do not go on the water, and, if competitors do not protest, have little to do on shore.
Gordon
------------- Gordon
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