Hi John

I have a 500 and its a nice boat for the money.

PY at 972 is fair, its a fast boat. For a fast boat it easy to sail, but dependes what you are used to.

Good in light winds, much better than 29er.

Windy, its got a lot of sail but not bad.

Martin

i found it a bit slow up wind.

down wind its good and its quite nice to trapeze off.
simple lay out

oh and the 29er is better than the 500

dont think so.
not like the 29er anyway

yes it will plane upwind the one our club does when the wind is up.its not as tippy as the 29er so would be slightly easier to sail.

you say you wish to sail with your daughter.
what sort of size is she, i understand if you dont want to say age ect. but a 500 could be too big

a hobie 405 for example is a good youth boat to learn in but if she is older or hevyer or more experienced then the 500 is fine.

may you can look at the laser vago too

oh thanks for the comments. I have been curently sailing a laser 3000, my daughter is 8 stone ans i am 10 and a half! I had been thinking of a fireball as our club has a fleet!     What do you think rs 500 or Fireball!

They definitely do and they're bloody good boats

If your club has a fleet of Fireballs I'd get a Fireball.  You'll learn a lot more about sailing and enjoy the comraderie.   I think buying a 500 in such circumstances would be divisive and I also think it might be a bit of a handfull for you.

I would have thought a 500 would plane to windward in flat water and the right wind strength but in most conditions it won't.  The 29er is a completely different boat and having sailed one I can tell you its not very stable and although you're the right weight its a total commitment sort of boat requiring some dedicated training and regular sailing.  It does plane to windward in quite a wide range of conditions.

Fireballs are great boats, but I sold my Winder after four happy years when I lost my expert, 12-stone, 6ft crew. The crew is critically important on a Fireball (and they're very satisfying to sail when you're a good team), but with an average crew you're better off with an asymmetric, imho.

I had previously raced a Fireball with an 8-stone crew (I'm 10.5), and while we won some club races in moderate conditions, we were always struggling in a blow.

So now I sail a 3000 with a (allegedly) 9 stone crew, which suits us perfectly. Have you made all the permitted mainsheet mods to your 3000 ( see http://www.3000class.org.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=915 - http://www.3000class.org.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=915  )? They cost almost nothing and make a huge difference to space/comfort, and because you can move fore and aft easily, make the boat quicker too.

No experience in a 500, I'm afraid, but those we have (or had) at Wilsonian seemed to need a fair bit of crew weight. RS seem to have piled on the sail area to produce enough speed. One of then even had some foam 'steps' glued to the deck to help the short crew step out onto the wire: the distance from the c'board case to the gunwale was too great a leap for her. Try in a F3+ before you buy, at any rate.

The feedback is that our suggested number for the RS500 at 972 seems to be about right - though some clubs are using 964 and still getting the right kind of results. With mixed abilities in the fleet I should imagine it will settle around 972 after returns.

In terms of weight, the nationals was won convincingly with 140kg, and the inlands at around 125kg, though within the top ten boats at the nationals there was variations from 120 through to 155+kg. In any new class, it tends to be technique dominated to begin with, and also theres a few years where owners get to grips with tuning which affects the results. 115kg would certainly be the lower end for the RS500, its this reason that the smaller S main and Jib is available - giving you the stepping stone that you need to get the skills. If you're stepping up this makes a big difference.

Interestingly the national champion winning helm also happened to be the ISAF Youth World Champion in a 29er and is quick to comment that the RS500 has 95% of the ultimate speed of the 29er with a fraction of the trickiness and instability. Thats not a criticism of the 29er.. but is a huge advantage for the RS500.

In terms of its general ease, the RS500 is not beyond any average dinghy sailor - like all high performance boats they take practice and perseverence. A normal sunday every week/every other week user would get good reward after just half a dozen sessions. Its not normal to be able to 'do' a boat like the RS500 if you're stepping up a performance rung, so one single 'demo' or test sail can often be a really bad indicator of suitability. Unfortunately theres no easy answer to this!

PM me or mail if you need any other stats on the RS500

as i sailed an rs500 every week at school for the past year i feel pretty qualified to answer this post. the 500 is a relatively easy boat to sail (for what you get back in terms of performance). with an 8stone crew you should be fine in it once you have sailed it a few time and know what your doing. i took a girl out in one to teach her to use a trapeze in a f4. she was absolutely tiny (guessing 5foot 2ish and 6 or 7 stone at a real max) we coped fine and even had the kite up with no swims.

on the other hand once you get used to it they are really good boats in a big breeze and waves. the final time i sailed one we were pretty much the only boat on the water and the rib pacing us said we were going about 16knots downwind with the kite. yet it felt totally managable and in control. in essence these boats are similar to the 29er in speed but much easier to sail (before anyone asks yes i dhave sailed a 29er quite a lot). they are faster than the 9er in light stuff but neither are particularly rewarding to sail until you get wiring.

one thing i would say is do not get the dacron sails. at our school my crew and i basically got our own boat (only ones that used it) after about 6months use both the main and jib were sh*gged. the mylar ones we used nearly as much are still in great condition. the dacron sails seemed to have very little shape wheras the mylar ones felt so much more balanced and generally better sails.

the handicap is fine at 972, we have won races at the club with it. its especially good in breeze. best bet would be to try one a few times if you can.

cant comment on the fireball as i have never sailed one. all i would say is dont go for a boat just because everyone else has one. go for the boat which gives you the biggest sense of satisfaction when you come off the water.....

at the end of the day its totally your choice. if you want more info about how the 500 sails etc then feel free to pm me etc.

one thing RS, could you make the kites in different colours, black is soooo boring, something like bright pink etc would be so much nicer

Its funny, I get really polarized feedback about the black spinnaker thing. Just as many people shout that we should keep it as change it.

There is a more thoughtful decision than just what Hydes give us of course. From a production perspective it saves expensive stocking. For instance we stock around 5 spinnakers for a weeks RS500 production, but for the RS400 which has a 5 colour spinnaker choice, we stock 20+ sails to cover every choice. Its not quite as bad as that but you get the gist. Secondly, its important to drive the identity of a class from the outset - a yellow flash on the mainsail is a feva, a 500 is very identifyable as a 500, partly due to its spinnaker. VW SB3 spins, red Mirror sails, Blue Ent sails, Big hearts on Cherubs - you can spot them a mile away. Seeing a big fleet of RS500s all with identical matching spinnakers is a pretty impressive sight, and is certainly not boreing. I'll keep an eye on this and we can adjust the colours if we think the balance moves. tmoore I promise it won't be pink!

Originally posted by G.R.F. Sorry neil I'm sure they are, who makes them these days then? 29er is that a brand of Fireball

Winder sailboats make them, and they make them well! Im in the 29er at the moment as I like the speed and the youth scene, if the Fireball is as strong as it is now when I feel a bit past it to hang around with the 29er kids Im sure I would go back into one

riki, that post was rather tongue in cheek. the black kite does go well. its a good colour to choose in that its easy to see and so better for trimming than say white which can be harsh. its understandable that you only want to stock the one colour especially until the class become of a large enough size to warrant the extra cost of different coloured kites.

im sure it does look impressive to see a whole fleet blasting downwind with black kites. i just like something which sets my boat apart

and feva sailor, there is no way a 500 would eat a 29er unless it was stupidly windy or stupidly rough sea conditions. the 29er is lighter, narrower in the water, has a better sail plan and is a thoroughbred racing boat. the 500 is a more forgiving boat offering relatively close performance. if both boats were sailed by the national champs im sure the 29er would draw away fairly convincingly.

good coz theres like only one other 29er that never sailes here so id be on PY VS 1 RS 500 and like 1million toppers and oppies

I reckon in very light winds the 500 would be pretty damn close to the 29er. Not going to get drawn into the debate about which boat is best cause i dont feel they are direct rivals for each other, they are similar boats aimed at different people.

Only sailed a 500 on 2 occasions, one was in 30 knotts and it seemed very stable and went pretty quick tho I think my technique was a bit out with the mainsheet not being off the boom, and the other was in about 8 knotts where the boat felt really powered up with the crew flat wiring and me hiking.

Back on topic though, I would say a 500 sounds like a good option for the OP

Interesting thread and thought as one of the longest servcing 500 owners (519) and also an Ex-Fireball sailor I'd add my thoughts:

RS500 vs Fireball, The 500 is quicker, however the Fireball is still an active class with over 15000 boats and you can buy a club level competitive boat for not much money. It is certainly more forgiving in the gybe - however - as someone else pointed out - it requires a good crew who knows how to fly a symmetric kite properly.  The only reason I moved to the 500 was because my crew that I'd trained for 2 years decided to move to pastures new and I knew that I could always get a reasonable crew at my club on the 500.  The Juniors jump at the chance so I'm never without a crew.

RS500 vs 29'er - one of our Juniors regularly sailed his Dad's 500 and also the club 29'er.  In the 29'er he spent most of the time gazing at the centreboard, in the 500 he was quickest by far in almost any wind.  If you really want to get to grips with the 29'er I'm sure it is a fast and rewarding boat, however the 500 is nearly as fast and far more forgiving.

Weight has been covered, at the recent 500 coaching weekend at Datchet the fastest boat was sailed by 2 adult males of about 22-23st in light breezes who used technique to leave everyone else behind.

So my recommendation - if your club sails Fireballs (Draycote etc.) and you can get a regular committed crew, then go for it for the class racing.  If your club is like ours with a menagerie of all sorts, the 500 is a great boat and after 21/2 years of continous sailing still seems pretty robust.  Fast boat and easy to get a crew.  The mix of crews at Datchet earlier in the month showed what a versatile boat it is.

Regards

Pete RS500 519

the 29er/rs500 debate is so old. put simply the 500 is easier to sail in any given wind speed than the 29er. however the circuit is not as good and neither is the reward when you get it right. in order to make it work in the 29er you need a good, reliable crew/helm combination. in the 500 you can take out any numptie in most winds and still get around the course without swimming.

i would say the 500 is best for you if your changing crews often. however if you plan on sailing with someone almost all the time then the 29er is available for very reasonable money at the moment (often with 2sets of sails for £2500). this c.f the 500 at £4000+ with only one set of rags.

i personally wouldnt go symetric because of the extra complication etc. i can use them but the assy is so much simpler, easier and (in my opinion) more fun.

Are there any reviews that give the relative pros and cons of the RS200, RS400 and V3000?

I am currently an Ent sailor (due to small children) who has previously sailed cats and Contenders. The children are now gettibng bigger and I am looking for more of a challenge.

Cheers,

PJ41

RS 200 v's RS 400 is all about crew/helm weight.

If you want a trapeeze then the V3000 and RS500 come into the frame.

It all depends on what you want and how heavy you are.

Precisely as Mr Dixon states, the V3000 only comes into play if you or your kids want to trapeze. If you do, pm me and we'll try to sort you out a demo - need to pick our day at this time of year though (or maybe I'm just getting soft(er)).

A lot of 3k's are sailed by parent-teenager combinations (couples is the other common combination), so it could be a good fit.

Thanks for the feedback - great forum.

Helm weight around 13st, crew varying from 7st - 11st. Trapeze would certainly keep the kids intersted, but not essential for next boat - might be too big a step.

I am guessing that 24st is too much for a 200, but would a 400 be ok - do either of the RS use a GNAV - looks great for crew space?

Cheers,

PJ41