aysmmetric moth
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=452
Printed Date: 13 Aug 25 at 12:04am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: aysmmetric moth
Posted By: tgruitt
Subject: aysmmetric moth
Date Posted: 12 Feb 05 at 2:43pm
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My friend has just got an international moth, it's a plywood one, it's fairly old but it's not a wide one. We're trying to make it fit an aysmmetric kite, only a small one like an RS200 kite or something, we thought it would be an interesting project. Who thinks its going to work and who thinks we will just end up with a broken boat and us sitting in A&E in hospital? Thanks ------------- Needs to sail more... |
Replies:
Posted By: Spot192
Date Posted: 12 Feb 05 at 3:48pm
| nice idea but iŽll think you will end up in hospital. got a int moth myself and i think itŽll never work, but please inform of your progress! very interesting! |
Posted By: Jamie
Date Posted: 12 Feb 05 at 4:21pm
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I'm sure I've seen a picture in Y&y ages ago of someone rigging a old size 505 kite as an assymetric on a moth. I think it could be done. the drops could be a interesting experience.
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Posted By: bigwavedave
Date Posted: 12 Feb 05 at 5:22pm
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You'll need foils on that too. That would be fast ------------- 
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Posted By: John
Date Posted: 13 Feb 05 at 12:41am
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These guys manage the kite ok.  |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 13 Feb 05 at 6:15am
Constructionally quite challenging: there are an awful lot of new types of load that the boat really isn't engineered for. I would guess you'll need to take off at least the foredeck andprobably the main deck as well in order to substantially beef up the structure. Maybe you should consider foils, Rohan Veal and Adam May go quite fast enough without s spinnaker - fast enough that I think they genuinely would go slower with. |
Posted By: *GM*
Date Posted: 13 Feb 05 at 10:11am
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The remnants of one of my broken tiller extentions was donated for use on a "Tiger Moth" - a two man, assymetric Moth. I think it was quite a wide one (well, for a wobbly boat anyway). |
Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 13 Feb 05 at 7:55pm
| Nice idea but a bit of a dream. JimC is right the stresses would require a substantial rework of the structures within the boat. Plus the completely different way you'd use the boat to get downwind would be best utilised with a broader flatter stern and more stability - so you might as well start again rather than modify an existing Moth. This is precisely why the RS600 and the RS700 are completely different boats. |
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 13 Feb 05 at 8:33pm
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but our aim is to get foiling in the end with the kite up, we're planning on a fixed bowsprit like the 18ft skiff, it's an old N12 mast tip which has been beefed up a bit! ------------- Needs to sail more... |
Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 13 Feb 05 at 8:41pm
but just look at how fast it's going!!! And look at the pinhead sail! is this from recently? ( oh - it's from the US :) )The interesting bit would come at the drop ( in a bit of wind ) it might help to get the wing out of the water, and sit forward, and reduce the waves at the back. The foiler moths sail so fast downwind that the main is sheeted in hard, with apparent wind well forward, that a kite would not set. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 14 Feb 05 at 1:41am
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With
the greatest of respect (and that's not meant in a sarcastic
way :-) , I wonder if any "soft water" boat could not
go
faster down the squares in most conditions with more sail area. I'm not sure that beating an A Class downwind is incredibly difficult, and there are non-spinnaker boats that are similar in pace or faster to an A which go much, much faster when they get a kite on. We're not much slower than the As on our Taipan, but we certainly get wiped off the board by a sistership with a little 17.5m2 kite downwind. Certainly the boost even moderate speed or fast cats get from kites is enormous. The A Class and F18s get creamed downwind by the little old Mosquito cat now the Mossies carry spinnakers in F16 form. The Mossie rates about 14 % slower all-round in standard form, but they are all over the world's best A Class sailors and world-class F18 guys off the breeze under kite. Many of the A class guys readily concede that their lack of spinnakers is a major problem downwind, and some Mossie guys are adding kites on converted A Class cats with good results. I think Steve Clark has said that Cogito would be faster downwind with a kite. Off the top of my head I'd wonder whether an 18 sans kite wouldn't blast off an A Class cat downwind too, yet the 18 goes a lot faster under kite than it does under jib and main (partly 'cause it tends to be wrong way up withoout kite, but still...). On boards we can knock off the As downwind in a breeze, and I still reckon a nice little flat kite would be a major boost. So couldn't the foiler just go lower under kite and get a deeper angle at the same pace? PS on a different subject re foilers....foiling Int Canoes....possible or not? I assume it is, others say no. |
Posted By: Blobby
Date Posted: 14 Feb 05 at 5:40am
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Kites will still work no matter how fast you go - it will just end up being flatter and more jib-like! After all, an current assy kite works at much closer angles than a symetrical one. Back in the early days of the Taipan, the kites of that era slowed them down, now the kites are a different cut and they are MUCH faster with the kite. We just had the F16 cat challenge at Changi sailing club over the weekend. One guy joined in in an A-class. He was always first to the windward mark, but generally 5 to 8 minutes behind the leading taipan by the finish over a 45 minute race with basically a single lap windward - leeward course. Canoe on foils - should be possible I would have thought, but I would guess you would probably want some dihedral angle to cope with sliding the seat across from one side to the other... |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Feb 05 at 12:52pm
Well there's two sorts of fast aren't there. There's fast as in straight line speed through the water, and fast as in vmg round the course. There are people who think they're directly related, but they're not. My personal opinion is that fast through the water is the fun bit in speed. VMG wins races, but doesn't deliver more fun sailing. Now having seen Adam May and Rohan Veal hurtling downwind on a hot angle with the main well pinned in I have some doubts as to whether much more is achieveable on "fast through the water" by adding a kite. If you put a kite on it would for sure go much deeper and achieve more vmg round the course. But would it be going faster through the water? In this case I doubt it. And if the fun part of sailing a particular boat is its speed, then its probably more fun to sail a hot angle with a vmg of 10 knots and 20knots through the water than it is to sail a deep angle with a vmg of 12 knots and 15knots through the water. And if you've got a boat that is a delight to sail downwind and a bit of a bore upwind then optimising the boat for vmg not speed, so you spend proportionally less time sailing downwind and more upwind is, I suggest, not the ideal result in terms of the fun factor. JimC |
Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 15 Feb 05 at 11:15am
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What design of moth is it, like who built it, when was it built, and more importantly whats it made of, i dont think you'll have much success structurally even with an RS kite. I sail 200's and i also own a moth now and i dont think wih an older moth it will take the leverage even of a 200's kite but then again theres no harm in trying.... but then it falls down to the problem that it wont be a moth any more.......... ------------- http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine FOR SALE: I14 2 Masts 2 poles 3 Booms, Foils Kites/Mains/Jibs too many to list. |
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 16 Feb 05 at 11:20am
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we know it wont be a moth anymore, its just a bit of fun really, we're just gonig to beef everyting up with carbon and see what happends. If it breaks then it breaks and we will just have to sell the remaining pieces! ------------- Needs to sail more... |
Posted By: Twin Poles
Date Posted: 16 Feb 05 at 3:06pm
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Should be pretty impressive even if it does only last one run, just make sure there's a camera pointed in the right direction when kite goes up! Keep us informed, it would be great to see the final product. ------------- |
Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 16 Feb 05 at 10:31pm
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indeed, you'll really want to reinforce the point at the bow all the way down cause all of the older ply hulls undergo a lot of stress in general there. ------------- http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine FOR SALE: I14 2 Masts 2 poles 3 Booms, Foils Kites/Mains/Jibs too many to list. |
Posted By: stuarthop
Date Posted: 18 Feb 05 at 12:14pm
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should look good when its finished then ------------- |
Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 18 Feb 05 at 1:06pm
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how you going to store the kite and hoist from etc etc ------------- http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine FOR SALE: I14 2 Masts 2 poles 3 Booms, Foils Kites/Mains/Jibs too many to list. |
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 18 Feb 05 at 2:00pm
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I have no idea, I'm not so sure about completing it now! I can't find anyone who will insure it and I think it might be a lot of work just for it all to explode and me to go to hospital again. I'm very interested in Jim C's plus plus thing, i think I want one of those more. Thanks for all your help and advice though. Cheers! ------------- Needs to sail more... |
Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 23 Feb 05 at 9:03pm
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bit of a shame, but ud have never really got anyone to ensure it anyway ------------- http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine FOR SALE: I14 2 Masts 2 poles 3 Booms, Foils Kites/Mains/Jibs too many to list. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 23 Feb 05 at 9:24pm
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I guess you'd get 3rd party insurance from somewhere, and just take the hit if you break something. If you go to the North American Moth site (I suspect there is a link from either the Y&Y Moth page or the UK moth site, you will see several pics of kited Moths, as the Yanks seem to have gone this route. |
Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 24 Feb 05 at 11:19pm
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thing is it cld very well be the next thing to happen to em, they got hydro foils, and the int canoe got a kite recently so itd make sense to develop that into the class. ------------- http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine FOR SALE: I14 2 Masts 2 poles 3 Booms, Foils Kites/Mains/Jibs too many to list. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 25 Feb 05 at 9:10am
Well yes, but the yank Moths are thirty years behind in hulls shape... |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 25 Feb 05 at 1:38pm
| Can you imagine an averagely fat yank sailing a narrow Moth, let alone getting it up on foils?! More sail area was the only answer, really! The trouble I see is that the Moths pride themselves on keeping all developments within the class rules (not too difficult with a Moth!) but a kite would involve massive rule changes. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 25 Feb 05 at 2:18pm
Not really massive rule changes as starting a complete new class from scratch. All that might stay the same is the name. You could say the same was true of the 14s when they junked all the peculiar rules they had gathered over the years and merged with the AUS fleets. In that case the immediately obsolete existing fleet did at least provide a stepping stone of sorts. Me, I think if you want to start a brand new class you should do so, and not break an existing one unless there are extraordinarily good reasons. I'd suggest that the 14 rule set pre amalgamation was good reason, but the that there would be no such case to destroy the current Moth class and create an entirely different boat in every respect. |
Posted By: Twin Poles
Date Posted: 25 Feb 05 at 6:57pm
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Looking at pics of Rohan hiked out on a broad reach with the boom in pretty much the same postion as on the beats, i think you'd need such a small, flat kite, that it would look more like a jib. ------------- |
Posted By: pro wannabe
Date Posted: 27 Feb 05 at 7:52pm
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loks fun! my advice? Experiment!! its the only way that new classes come to be! my uncle in scotland bought a really bit wind surfer, shoved a mettal plate on it and put a laser2 mast, main and jib, an extra trapeze and a buzz aysemmi! and a sprit obviously! and yes he has got mental problems! (or i think so) anyway it goes like butter off a hot knife! ------------- Your spinni aint as big as your mouth! |
Posted By: Calum_Reid
Date Posted: 27 Feb 05 at 10:02pm
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Mr Veal rekons they sail with the main in further downwind than upwind because upwind they sail so free to get foiling and downwind, well they're going so bloody quick the wind is basicaly on the nose! ------------- 
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Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 27 Feb 05 at 10:51pm
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cos of the apparent wind
------------- http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine FOR SALE: I14 2 Masts 2 poles 3 Booms, Foils Kites/Mains/Jibs too many to list. |
Posted By: Calum_Reid
Date Posted: 28 Feb 05 at 2:19pm
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well duh! I was just proving u right!
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Posted By: Keith
Date Posted: 02 Mar 05 at 1:22pm
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Calum, Whats with this dont get hooked, Hike! catchphrase.Sounds painful.... You boys need to get a faster boat........what about a foiling Moth each? ------------- Keith... |
Posted By: stuarthop
Date Posted: 02 Mar 05 at 2:19pm
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Those are awsome boats i want 1!!! ------------- |