yes its not only china who limits what ppl can say and read, right here on yachts and yachting forums G,R,F has been band for standing up for truth and freedom,as sailers i thought you would defend the right of freedom, but seems not, in the words of the song,"sit back tight up,never put a fight up,sit there steaming till your face turns green... ...your a goodmorning machine, your a how are you device. robots robots your just a lot of robots.

siting there too scared to say what you think, in case the forum gods turn on you,

come on guys, be brave i am not asking you to sail round the world single handed, but in there spirt of freedom, i ask you to fight for the rights of a truly great man of words, lets get G,R,F the right to speek, for it is he that says what we are all to scard to say

Has he? How would we know this?

I am sure I saw him posting quite recently ...

  Are you related to Grumpf by any chance? Ever been windsurfing?

"G,R,F has been band for standing up for truth and freedom"

"for it is he that says what we are all to scard to say"

Maybe you're right, but daily homophobic, misogynist abuse isn't my idea of the truth. For every interesting post he wrote, he produced 3 pages of gratuitous provocation. He's like the avatar he recently acquired: black and white, loud, and way over the top. 

Then again, if you're such an advocate for Grumpf's rights, you'll tell me to shut up because I'm a woman but not the acceptable type  (you know, 22 years old blonde with great body and big tits). Unfortunately, I belong to the "old minger" congregation and thus have no right to be voicing my opinion here.

Also, I do not windsurf.

Indeed, of late, his stuff on the Alto has actually been quite interesting and informative.

I'm not sure where his hate of cats came from - maybe the fact that he's struggled enough with one hull let along managing two! 

Anyway, I also had no problem with the bloke.  As above I have a strong tolerance for abuse and don't find that much offensive.  But, the admin have a duty to respond to calls for his banning if people feel that strongly about it. 

GRF - For every one interesting post, three pages of flaming.

A bit of flaming can be entertaining, but when it is every post, it ceases to be entertainment and becomes abuse.

3 x no hoper (written like this to show my point that flaming can be done in an entertaining way) and others may wish to aquaint themselves of the posts of GRF and his homophobic, mysogonistic, cat hating and generally anything prodding opinions before deciding that the freedom of speech has been removed.

FWIW, No-one lives in a country where the freedom of speach is absolute (even if you think you do).  Slander, Libel, Defamation, Obscenity, Perjury, Threats, Profanity, Company Secrets, Treason and Blasphemy anre all examples where the freedom of speech has been removed to provide a society.

Different countries have different limitations on the 'freedom of speech' .  The denial of the Holocaust is one such limitation in Germany (and other european countries)

Hate Speech - on the Internet it is Flaming - has been accepted as non society compatible for centuries and all countries have rules about that (encitement to violence / terrorism anyone?)

Freedom of speech on Y&Y - Yes

Tolerance of Bigots and Flamers - now that is a different debate.

Please get the facts correct before starting debates and making statements like this otherwise we have Freddy Star ate my Hamster debacles

Edited for spelling

Also, this is a freely provided forum. Rules on free-speech etc are entirely the domain of the moderators/owners. This ain't no democracy.

I do appreciate that GRF's deliberate trolling:useful stuff ratio was way out of line (even for this place). But I thought he'd been getting a bit better. Not much, but a bit.

To be fair, he relished 'taking it' as much 'dishing it out', apparently.

I do think we're becoming too precious in society. If someone is liable to be physically or seriously mentally damaged, then there's a case for banning, but the death penalty is an over-reaction to "mum, he called me a name", imho.

I take Isabel's point regarding mysogynistic comments etc.  She is quite right and I fully empathise with her position.  As for her comments regarding her own attributes ( i.e. minger etc), these are a red herring.  She is fishing for compliments  She's a slim, intelligent, blonde, attractive French woman.  Her husband thinks so, and so would anyone who met her. Subject closed.

As for the wider issue of free speech.  Well GRF could take it and dish it out.  I'm afraid that "give and take" attitude is not one that is famliar to many on this board, more's the pity.

When all is said and done, he's out there sailing week in and week out, putting his money where his mouth is, and giving valuable feedback to all and sundry. I have no problem with the guy on that level, so would like to see him back. He is one of the few around here that has started any kind of informed debate.

agreed; 1 interesting post ruined by 3 pages of rubbish. 

SA can have him.

Just to to takle the intial point there may be a right to free speech but as with all rights there is a responsibility, in this case to use it carefully.  I would not use the same language whilst teaching kids to sail as I would use on a work night out! 

Unfortunatly GRF despite often raising good points and provoking reasoned debate seemed unwilling (I'm quite sure he was not unable) to moderate his style of writing to suit the environment he was posting in.  If Y&Y wish to promote this as a family friendly forum where no one should feel indimidated or have to deal with a bit of sledging (to use cricket vanacular) then thats their call, it's their forum.  If we don't like it then we are free to exercise our right of choice.

The only solution I could see is for GRF to apologise to Mark for stepping over the line and ask if he might be allowed back in, whilst promising to moderate his posts.  I can't see this happening, so bon voyage GRF good luck with the Alto, and have a look at Snowboarding wristguards surely it must be possible to build a comfy set!!   

He's likely to enjoy plenty of the former on SA.

He's not stupid and must have been perfectly well aware he was running the risk of a ban here. His choice.

I think he's probably need to apologise to everyone on the forum; I think hes fecked overyone off.

well he hasn,t been rude to me, maybe hes only rude to people he thinks are not worthy of repect?

and on a rough count i make it about 70% against the ban and i am as good with stats as i am at sailing

maybe we could slit the forums up in two, one half for the rufty tufty sea fairing guys who can give as good as they get, and the other half for the ladys and guys who sail cats, love yazz or own Mac computers?

Maybe because the silent majority stay silent & therefore not counted but I like the idea that his rants are gone!

Are you related to him?  You come over just like him.  I can mix it with the best of them.  However he just insults people with his bigoted, homophobic and sexist rubbish.

a3xloser = GRF = Grumpf ...???

Joined 4th Aug ... bit fishy

excuse me i am not GRF i join the forum to ask about a boat i was looking at, this kindly guy GRF gave some helpfull advice,next thing i know he has been banned,

anyone who can mistake a uneducated non sailing trucker from wolverhampton, for the sophisticated skilled sailor GRF is not nearly as smart as they like to think they are

but i can see why GRF end up insuling some of you

That explains it - trucker!

Are you parked up and bored?  This must be the only thing keeping you entertained while you wait for your breaks to finish.

Its a sad hobby trolling - hoping its given you a smile while your tucked up in your cab.  Got a few other forums on the go as well or is just this one that you've chosen to bait?

Get rid of this mug!

sounds like someones bitter cos they  would be in he girly half of the forum

Sadly, GRF seemed unable to work out that what he thought was humour was in fact irritating rubbish which detracted from anything interesting he might occasionally have had to say. And why take up sailing or join a sailing forum if your general opinion of those you sail/converse with is so low?

I would have to agree with Mark's decision.

yes drive a 44 tonner,

Surely this merits a ban too, then?

Frankly, if people didn't like GRF, they didn't have to read his threads (to invert the liberal argument that if you don't like porn on TV you can always turn it off [even though you may have paid good money to the TV company screening it])

[/QUOTE]

Frankly, if people didn't like GRF, they didn't have to read his threads (to invert the liberal argument that if you don't like porn on TV you can always turn it off [even though you may have paid good money to the TV company screening it])

[/QUOTE]

But when he has a opinion on everything that means by your reasoning we should read nothing!.

I still think he has gone to a better place.

Seconded!! He is pretty funny!! Just dont take him too seriously, yes he steps over the line sometimes but haven't we all?? If you dont like it then skip his posts!

And ASok...........G.R.F can be personal but i feel for a3xloser, he is a newbie, and surely your post should get you banned because that was personal and downright rude. All this talk of getting people into the sport and you put a post like that.........very clever.

Very true!

I've personally been enjoying most of GRF's contributions, all forums need trolls sometimes. I think that most of his comments are intended as good humoured and constructive (in an offhand sort of way) and his sexist comments are all meant to be taken lightly, as are his Cherub rants.

Unfortunately I think the homophobia comes across as genuine..........don't know what the name is for an unrational fear or dislike of multihulls is tho?

Banning ASok please no, not in my name we have clashed a little and some of his post on my first thread where a bit harsh,, but i belive this was on a missunderstanding, and some of his other posts have been usefull, and to be fair i did end up calling him a  "a know it all,know nothing, patronising insulting and opinionated snot nosed git, keep sniffing the coke your so cool" which with hindsight he may have took as rude

this thread is about freedom to speak, not more banning,

on that this thread now shows over 90% of people think GRF should not have been banned, and that the forum is a lesser place with out him, as for the anti gay views he has, i belive in test 80% of homerphobes ar infact represed gays or bi, and that they are unknowing projecting there anger outwards as if its other gays have made them like this, sadly this means GRF may never get what most of you lot have been saying he needs for a long time, a bloody good f......

looked this up in the oxford english dictionary,the name is for an unrational fear or dislike of multihulls is a Sailor

yes if you count every persons view, i have excluded views i didn't like and it does come out at 90% for GRF, people who agree with the ban must agree with censorship, well i censored them ok

Hobiephobia?

????

I stand by my point trolling for trollings sake is a bad habit and I can't really be bothered with it.  Not a banning offence is it?

Water off a ducks back

Thank you JimC for answering Rick’s question perfectly!

The terms and conditions for registering with the forum are clearly stated and you have all agreed to abide by them by signing up to make postings, so I fail to see why anyone has cause to complain when they repeatedly break those terms and conditions.

This is a sailing forum for people interested in sailing to swap news and gain information; it is not a place for inane comments and personal abuse. I am sure there are plenty of other places on the web for that. Personally I cannot fathom why people get so worked up about their rights to make whatever comments they like about people they have never even met on a sailing forum. If being a member is so important, then all you have to do is abide by the rules, add some informed comment to the debates and you will be welcomed with open arms. Just remember this can be read by anyone and we are trying to promote and grow our sport of sailing, not make it look ridiculous and inhabited by a bunch of unfriendly and abusive individuals.

Please can we move onto something more constructive!?  What do you all think about the move to a monthly format for Yachts & Yachting magazine? Our first edition in the new bigger, brighter and more in-depth format will be out in will be out on September 11^th and will have over 40 pages of Olympic regatta reports and interviews, as well as a report on the RS Classes championship in Garda.

For those of you who have always complained that the annual subscription for the fortnightly edition was too much, the good news is that the new subscription will be just £39.95 for a whole years’ reading, as well as all the advantages of being a member of the subscribers privilege club. Comments on a postcard please…

Can’t wait for the sailing to start, (with some wind hopefully!) in Quindao. The word is that Ben has chosen to use his Devoti boat from the previous Games……

 Keep your eyes on the home page for all the news as it happens.

John

Well, I've got to say I think a move to a more in-depth, monthly, publication is a good thing.  It was becoming too expensive to buy fortnightly and the articles were getting pretty thin.  Hopefully there will be more proper journalism and less articles written by interested third parties published.

I'm not very interested in month-old news. Sorry if that isn't the answer you are looking for.

What's the punishment for Admin Groupies who deliberately go off-thread?

I enjoyed some of GRF's comments. I could see exactly where his frustration was coming from as an ex-windsurfer. But his bigotted rantings became less and less funny and I became more and more irritated by his hijacking of perfectly reasonable threads "59er info sought".

His understanding of rig and sail design is very good and he is right to say that windsurfer rig design is ahead of that for dinghies (on the other hand windsurfers use different sails for different wind strengths so their sails are always designed around being fully powered/over powered - dinghy sailors get one sail for all winds). However, it is the way he went about saying these things that got my back up. It's partly forgivable in testosterone laden adolescent Cherubites, less so from the keyboard of a middle aged man who increasingly sounded bitter and twisted.

If he thought he was being funny then he should remember that it's important to know your audience. The irony is that many of his most ardent admirers are the young Cherubim from which he tried so hard to distance himself.

(and Pierre - please take your tongue out of BNS' ear)

Chortle!

Which cerubers suported GRF???  I cant think of any!

I think the forum is a happier place without G.R.F.

He has some interesting ideas and is able to question what we have put up with for a long time from an informed (albeit parallel) position. However, his constant abuse and arrogance had long ago ceased to be funny or even acceptable.

His attitude never bothered me. Small price to pay for some interesting threads, I'd say.

he did have some good ideas and some bad ones, but i dont think thats the problem, it was his attidtude, all knowing holy than though approach that was far too arrogant.  yes he was trying to pull some legs, but i never bothered responding to his threads for that very reason.  i mean why lower yourself  just for someone throw abuse at you and what you sail.

if he could moderate his post to be less abussive then maybe more people would of joined in with his chat and that wouyld of benifitted everybody.

until he learns to put a filter on his brain mouth thing, im glad he's gone.  found him very boring as it was always the same old rubbish he was harping on about.

this thread is really going nowhere is it? all it has served to do is divide the forum and make us all look pathetic.

at the end of the day, the forum is owned and run by Y&Y crew (FOR NO FEE). looking at it this way do you really think its fair to try and tell them what they should and shouldnt do with the forum? ? ?

 this thread has shown that many poeple feel that banning was too strong, maybe a 2 week exclusion, main thing is it shows we as users have a say,(FOR NO FEE)its a forum not a yacht club, it costs nothing to run, and with out us the users it would be nothing.

i started this thread to find out what everyone thought about the banning of GRF, to be honest it looks about even, point is after this thread the powers that be, will shink a little more before they ban someone for saying what he thinks,

the forum seems like a cornish village after the surfers go home for the winter,so peacfull,beat me to death with a pasty someone

Are the people that are offended by GRF living in the real world?  Where do you live/work etc.?  P*ss taking is part of life, you've got to learn to ignore it or laugh at it, but don't let it wind you up.  Is the UK going soft?

GRF was just trying to provoke people, I've never met him, but I can bet that if you met him face to face he would probably still make the same sort of comments, but you would take them differently as his body language would show that the comments were made in jest.

What exactly was it that has got him banned?

I will miss reading about how the alto's comming on, & his comments on the dinghy sailing industry were spot on.  I knew that if a thread was started by GRF, of commented on by GRF, it would at least be something entertaining to read!

he i think got banned by mark jardin in this thread

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4447&PN=1&TPN=4 - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4 447&PN=1&TPN=4

he is listed a guest after he got banned, you should be able to spot his style

The trouble is the people that complained about Grumpf, i'm guessing are some of the oldist forum members.  He put some life into the forum and i loved reading about the development of the Alto. 

I have found sailing anarchy getting more interesting recently.

GRF..... well said, good man.

Can't say anymore really. 

Hi all

Just to make it clear as to why G.R.F. was banned from the forum; it was due to multiple complaints and continued breach of the forum rules and policies. We have a readership who might take offence far quicker than that of Sailing Anarchy or Boards.

Graeme is welcome back with his new profile if he can keep within the rules, avoid personal attacks and stop getting complained about so much.

I am left in the position where I have to respond to the majority and keep the tone of threads within the rules. Threads in banter can go where they want in my opinion.

I have to accept that some actions I take will upset some people but I do not feel that I should have to put up with personal attacks for taking those actions that my job compels me to do.

Mark

All of these complainers seem to be very quite in this thread! Most people seem to of been gutted the old rogue had been excluded!!  Oh well, we understand you have a job to do Mark.

It all seems to of been sorted now!!

Do you not think it is more a case that the silent majority (who have sensibilities and do not appreciate repeated personal attacks) have decided to remain silent on this issue rather than respond to posts of "why did he get banned, I found him funny". 

Personally (and I do mean personally), I found his latest musings to be full of venom, spite and vitriol.  I dismissed it as the mutterings of someone trying to save as much face as possible and have left it there

To be honest i dont really care.  I enjoy reading his posts about the ALto and hearing about his progress in dinghy sailing.  Perhaps i'm thick skinned, or perhaps i'm part of the society that his jokes are aimed at instead of about.  One thing i will say is that he is a great contributor to the forum, with some interesting views on the crossover between dinghy sailing and windsurfing.  I dont know if anyone else had noticed the quality of the postings on the forum has dropped in the last year or so.  It seems to be more about how fast this or that is, or how much sail area that has of late.

No-one has been "personally attacked", people who write on this forum live hundreds of miles apart,  what you mean is, comments have been made which you don't agree with.  THEY'RE JUST WORDS ON A SCREEN!!!  Put it into perspective!  I think GRF suffered more comments against him than anyone else on here, he just gave as good as he got.  If you don't want to be the brunt of his comments don't rise to the bait, but if he you have ago back, don't start wingeing if he says something you don't like! 

This thread is pathetic and frankly I’m embarrassed to contribute to such a mindless discussion. The rules are very clear, and I really can’t see any room for debate about what constitutes suitable content.

I would consider ending this thread before it fuels any more idiocy.

I change my mind.and i think i speak for the majority of people,silent as they are.

Get G,R,F banned he is one of those people who try to make trouble

Ssssssshhhhhh I'm listening to the silent majority.......

......

...

.....

Nope... not a sausage.

There must be psychics in our midst.

LOL... you too eh TT ?