The big bear away....
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Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4171
Printed Date: 24 Jan 26 at 7:56pm Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: The big bear away....
Posted By: winging it
Subject: The big bear away....
Date Posted: 10 May 08 at 9:44am
One of my most common moments of ineptitude when sailing my contender is not being able to survive the bear away round the top mark when its windy.
I do all the text book stuff - move right back etc, but the boat just accelerates too fast and I usually fall off the side, do a quick inspection of the foredeck and then go for a little tow....
Apart from attempting to sail a boat that's too much for me, what am I doing wrong?
------------- the same, but different...
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Replies:
Posted By: Skiffybob
Date Posted: 10 May 08 at 9:52am
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Can't really comment about Contenders, but have plenty of experience in a boat that loves to do this (i.e. 12ft long and vasty over-ragged).
Have you eased the kicker? If not this will drive the nose down. Also, ease the main before you start pulling the tiller. What you need to do is to pull the boat on top of you, then bear away. A common mistake that people make is to get the timing between mainsheet and tiller wrong. NEVER bear away first because the boat will heel to leeward, and this will drive the nose in. Heel it to windward (over on top of you) and push with your front foot (a bit like you do with a board).
Hope that helps.
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Posted By: foaminatthedeck
Date Posted: 10 May 08 at 10:01am
Do you have any toe straps across the back of the boat? Mine are diagonaly across the floor of the cockpit at the back. My back foot goes in the straps with my frount foot on the side. Sorry no picks at the moment. When I started using these it stopped me fall off the side as much.
------------- Lark 2170
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Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 10 May 08 at 10:23am
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agree with skiffybob about bringing the boat in ontop of you and easing the kicker.
i used to blow kicker and cunninham at same time then let the board up a wee bit then ease the main just before you bear off. never got sent round the bow.
the only time i felt i need the toe staps was in 40knts dead down wind, but then again im not a small chap so i could use my weight more affectively in staying on the boat.
------------- https://skiff-media.teemill.com/" rel="nofollow - T-SHIRTS
https://www.photo4me.com/profile/23908/" rel="nofollow - PRINTS
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Posted By: Contender 541
Date Posted: 10 May 08 at 1:03pm
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Kicker off
Cunningham off
Board up a bit
Hook on - if you are not already
Heel it over on to of you a bit
Ease the main
Push the tiller
Step out backwards and take the main with you
Let me know if it works - I always had the same problem 
------------- When you find a big kettle of crazy it's probably best not to stir it - Pointy Haired Boss
Crew on 505 8780
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Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 10 May 08 at 2:44pm
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541 should'nt that be pull the tiller?
I sometimes find doing the bearaway in little steps can help if it's really gnarly...you kind of feel how the boat is loading up through the tiller and sheet loads and sail it accordingly. Bear away onto a close reach (having done all those other things mentioned above)...if the nose starts to go down, the speed coming on, the hull really starting to plane and the apparent going forward might mean that she pops up and gets settled before you finish the bearaway. We're only talking fractions of a second here, a bit like centralising the tiller mid gybe really, but it might just be easier than expecting to bear away from upwind in a F5 to a dead run in one swift manoevre.
Not sure how heavy you are but the Contender board is massive, you can probably get away with having it really quite a long way up. And don't steer too much, get the trim right and the windward heel right and it will more or less bear away by itself. Yank on a load of rudder (especially if heeled) and it kinda makes the stern come up and the bow go down. Release the "pressure" out of the sail with the kicker and mainsheet, steer the boat into the bearaway by heeling it on top of you, and the rudder just follows along behind as more of a "trim tab" than a proper steering device. If you get it wrong and end up in the drink a quick stab with the tiller will usually pick you up again...
------------- RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed"
Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs"
Enterprise GBR21970
Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra"
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Posted By: Contender 541
Date Posted: 10 May 08 at 3:17pm
Originally posted by Iain C
541 should'nt that be pull the tiller?
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Bugger 
------------- When you find a big kettle of crazy it's probably best not to stir it - Pointy Haired Boss
Crew on 505 8780
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Posted By: skiffcrew
Date Posted: 10 May 08 at 6:45pm
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sorry if it sound obvious but move the angle of your body in relation to the boat futher back, i.e. lean back, and by bending your back leg more, you can drive the nose of the wind, as in a fast bear away the force of the acceleration will force you off the side making you go forwards.
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Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 11 May 08 at 8:42am
in the 600 i dont tend to bother with the control lines until im settled down sitting in the boat having born away. Just make sure that as you come up to the mark the boat is FLAT then ease the main, walk backwards, and find a footloop. now, ditch as much main as possible, pull the tiller a tiny bit and hang on.
------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it.
Also International 14, 1318
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Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 11 May 08 at 10:24am
you dont dump the kicker??? in big winds mike i think the 600 would just huck you in unless you control the sail through things like kicker
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 May 08 at 11:58am
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Should we mention looking upwind so that you don't get caught by the killer gust halfway though?
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Posted By: Splosh
Date Posted: 11 May 08 at 4:48pm
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Originally posted by Merlinboy
you dont dump the kicker??? in big winds mike i think the 600 would just huck you in unless you control the sail through things like kicker |
When we had a 600 coach come and help us out, he (james sainsbury) said that he can regurally sail the whole course with full kicker on and its it isn't that bad bearing away and jybing etc with it on?!
Also commitment is a huge part, just like in windsurfing aswell. If your thinking i must not capsize, 8/10 times you will because your to concentrated on that rather than sailing the boat. Never worry/think about it and take it as it comes !
------------- RS300 - 346 :D
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Posted By: iwsmithuk
Date Posted: 11 May 08 at 6:07pm
Originally posted by Iain C
541 should'nt that be pull the tiller?
I sometimes find doing the bearaway in little steps can help if it's really gnarly...you kind of feel how the boat is loading up through the tiller and sheet loads and sail it accordingly. Bear away onto a close reach (having done all those other things mentioned above)...if the nose starts to go down, the speed coming on, the hull really starting to plane and the apparent going forward might mean that she pops up and gets settled before you finish the bearaway. We're only talking fractions of a second here, a bit like centralising the tiller mid gybe really, but it might just be easier than expecting to bear away from upwind in a F5 to a dead run in one swift manoevre.
Not sure how heavy you are but the Contender board is massive, you can probably get away with having it really quite a long way up. And don't steer too much, get the trim right and the windward heel right and it will more or less bear away by itself. Yank on a load of rudder (especially if heeled) and it kinda makes the stern come up and the bow go down. Release the "pressure" out of the sail with the kicker and mainsheet, steer the boat into the bearaway by heeling it on top of you, and the rudder just follows along behind as more of a "trim tab" than a proper steering device. If you get it wrong and end up in the drink a quick stab with the tiller will usually pick you up again...
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I agree, little steps. Try and arrive at the windward mark a bit high, ease off gradually to a reach across the top of the mark and ease off slowly from there, all the time moving back and letting off little bits of main (having let off some kicker before arriving at the mark).
Think of sailing a nice round arc around the mark rather than trying to make it a sharp corner. You'll sail further which isn't fast but you'll fall in less and falling in is NEVER fast!
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Posted By: Kiwi Spy
Date Posted: 12 May 08 at 2:07am
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This is best performed at pace and with a moderately slow turn initially.
1. before the top mark drop your vang about an inch - this will keep some control on your leech but will allow twist, and will take the pressure offthe gooseneck (you should be sailing upwind with a lot of vantension, but not vang sheeting). If yiou are vang sheeting let off a couple of inches (thiough the side cleat not on the vang itself) ease the luff a little too, if you can
2. spring the mainsheet so you are holding it in your hand and you are in control as you approach the mark.
3. move aft a foot or so, ease the mai about 12-18inches and start the turn down.
4. keep the boat sailing fast and under control as you turn your boat slowly.
5. get the back foot off the gunnel and into the boat if you are unable to keep trapezing (remeber the boat at all times should be heeled slightly to leeward. If you are not heeled to leeward you have eased the main too much, and if yiour rudder has started aerating and you are very heeld ease the main some more (6 inches)
Control and pace are the two things to remember
RG
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Posted By: Chris Bridges
Date Posted: 12 May 08 at 7:51am
Originally posted by Kiwi Spy
This is best performed at pace and with a moderately slow turn initially.
1. before the top mark drop your vang about an inch - this will keep some control on your leech but will allow twist, and will take the pressure offthe gooseneck (you should be sailing upwind with a lot of vantension, but not vang sheeting). If yiou are vang sheeting let off a couple of inches (thiough the side cleat not on the vang itself) ease the luff a little too, if you can
2. spring the mainsheet so you are holding it in your hand and you are in control as you approach the mark.
3. move aft a foot or so, ease the mai about 12-18inches and start the turn down.
4. keep the boat sailing fast and under control as you turn your boat slowly.
5. get the back foot off the gunnel and into the boat if you are unable to keep trapezing (remeber the boat at all times should be heeled slightly to leeward. If you are not heeled to leeward you have eased the main too much, and if yiour rudder has started aerating and you are very heeld ease the main some more (6 inches)
Control and pace are the two things to remember
RG
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It should be heeled to windward no leeward? Leeward heel will not aid the turn at all but make it slower?
------------- 49er GBR735 (for sale) - Rutland SC
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Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 12 May 08 at 9:11am
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We had the 18 out yesterday in quite simply the most amazing conditions we've sailed it in yet...and we were really getting to grips with triple wire bearaways. The power and and acceleration of the 18 was just awesome (and that was only in a F3 ish).
We did stay dry which was a bonus, but there were a couple of times that we did not get it quite right and come out with too much leeward heel on...giving you a good case of vertigo as you suddenly seem to be trapezing about 10 foot above water!!!
------------- RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed"
Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs"
Enterprise GBR21970
Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra"
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Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 12 May 08 at 12:46pm
pulling the tiller towards you will push to bow down, likewise pushing it away from you will do the opposite, in a boat with as much rag as the contender, the tips you've already got about dumping the sheet prior to the bear-away are also critical, but don't let too much kicker off as you don't want the apparent going too far forward, this will simply mean you bear-away too much, and in high enough winds, straight into a nice big chinese gybe! a little bit of windward heel is good because it will help reduce the amount of rudder you need to use, but not too much as from memory this is a good method of wiping yourself off the side of your contender...the one I raced many moons ago also had twinned centreboard uphaul lines which was a great way of being able to quickly lean in and pull up some board prior to the top mark, it's a very deep foil on the Contender and can make life difficult when trying to bear away steeply without it up a bit.
------------- Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one
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Posted By: Kiwi Spy
Date Posted: 18 May 08 at 11:33pm
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You need a little leeward heel to ensure that you have gravity working to help get you body back inboard, rather than working to get it out of the boat, if you are heeled to windward.
If you do a quick release of the mainsheet, and ease a small chunk (6-8") quickly as you turn that will take the pressure of the rudder. The degree of heel is slight coming into an upright position as the boat turns.
If you start with windward heel the boat will come event further back on you as you turn - which can get very messy. Also it is not a good idea to be relying on footloop pressure to pull you back into the boat in the first instance. OK as a Plan B - but not Plan A.
RG
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Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 19 May 08 at 11:24am
I don't care if I look daft - I need to know:
What is the difference between vang sheeting and vang tension ?
------------- the same, but different...
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Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 19 May 08 at 1:46pm
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im geussing vang sheeting is when if the kicker does not go exactly to the mast base (like the 600), then if you pull lots and lots of kicker on the boom wont go out as the kicker is acting as a mainsheet, this does happen very slightly on the 600 in light winds.
vang tension is just how much grunt you use to get the kicker on.
thats just a geuss but it would seem the logical thing.
------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it.
Also International 14, 1318
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Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 19 May 08 at 2:13pm
or is it playing the kicker upwind...which I can do on the contender...
I am confused...
------------- the same, but different...
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Posted By: bovlike
Date Posted: 19 May 08 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by Kiwi Spy
You need a little leeward heel to ensure that you have gravity working to help get you body back inboard, rather than working to get it out of the boat, if you are heeled to windward.
If you do a quick release of the mainsheet, and ease a small chunk (6-8") quickly as you turn that will take the pressure of the rudder. The degree of heel is slight coming into an upright position as the boat turns.
If you start with windward heel the boat will come event further back on you as you turn - which can get very messy. Also it is not a good idea to be relying on footloop pressure to pull you back into the boat in the first instance. OK as a Plan B - but not Plan A.
RG
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im sorry but i have never been told to use leeward helm to bear away as leeward helm wants to turn the boat to windward so more helm is needed to turn the boat. it cant be fast
------------- Ian (Bov) Turnbull
18ft Skiff Ronstan UK
http://www.ianturnbullmarine.co.uk - Chandlery, tapered ropes and specialist solutions for sailors who demand the best - BovBoats.co.uk
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Posted By: combat wombat
Date Posted: 19 May 08 at 3:10pm
Vang sheeting is just when you are playing the main with kicker on. Refers to boats where you play the main with no kicker until the wind gets up and it gets too hard, then you switch to "vang sheeting" by pulling kicker on and sheeting it that way instead. Means the leech tension is held with the kicker rather than the mainsheet.
------------- B14 GBR 772
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Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 19 May 08 at 4:41pm
thank you cw - in which case I know I am vang sheeting - kicker on hard in a contender as soon as breeze picks up.
------------- the same, but different...
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Posted By: Kiwi Spy
Date Posted: 20 May 08 at 1:27pm
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Don't forget that a Contender is different from other boats like Musto's and 18's in that you don't have wings, are very low to the water and have a big rudder if you have to use it. Provided you drop the sheet quickly it is not slow, very controlled, you don't need much rudder. The biggest risk is that you go into windward through too much of a turn - which is not easily recovered. We sail in big waves on the open sea - and hitting waves with your body is not good. Yes you can go high on the wire, but you achieve the same by moving back in the boat during the turn and pushing it around with your feet. Then set the wire up when you are on course.
RG
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Posted By: Chas 505
Date Posted: 27 May 08 at 12:07pm
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Oh the joys of bearing away in a contender....definately an art that I failed to master when sailing them! And sailing at Datchet, I even got to watch Stuart Jones showing us all how to do it.....usually from my upturned hull admittedly!
One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet (apols if I have missed it from anyone else) is speed.
A boat that is travelling really quickly will be less susceptible to a gust compared to a boat that is going slowly - especially in a big blow. Numerous reasons for this (foils speeds etc). But how often do you inadvertantly slow the boat as you attempt the manouevre?
In breeze, less speed often means greater load on the rig (or hull resistance to that power generated). In a blow, we find that speed becomes our best defense against big gusts, up or down wind, whether bearing off or sailing straight line. |
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Chas
------------- Life is too short.
Work Hard; Play Hard; Sail a 505
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