Here's one to ponder.  Gybe mark, two asymmetrics one behind the other.  The second boat delays his gybe by half a boat length so that he ends up to leeward but behind the front one who then bears away to hoist his kite resulting in a collision with the rear one who has by this time already got his pole deployed and overlapping the front one.

The boat at the front claims he needs room, the boat behind claims the leader has sailed low causing the collision.  The leading boat says he would be able to sail that low if the rear boat had not put his pole out into his path.  The rear boat says he is sailing his proper course because being 2 man he doesn't have to bear away as much to hoist.  Needless to say the rear boat was a 4000 which has a very long pole.

It was all solved in good humour as the contact was merely the pole of the rear boat and the legs of the leading boat's helm, and the rear boat did a quick 720 in lightish winds.  But thinking about it, was that necessary?

Hi everyone,

These are some of the rules that cover this scenario:

 SECTION C

AT MARKS AND OBSTRUCTIONS

To the extent that a Section C rule conflicts with a rule in Section A or B, the

Section C rule takes precedence.

18 ROUNDING AND PASSING MARKS AND OBSTRUCTIONS

In rule 18, room is room for an inside boat to round or pass between an

outside boat and a mark or obstruction, including room to tack or gybe

when either is a normal part of the manoeuvre.

18.1 When This Rule Applies

Rule 18 applies when boats are about to round or pass a mark they are

required to leave on the same side, or an obstruction on the same side,

until they have passed it. However, it does not apply

(a) at a starting mark surrounded by navigable water or at its anchor

line from the time the boats are approaching them to start until

they have passed them, or

(b) while the boats are on opposite tacks, either on a beat to windward

or when the proper course for one of them, but not both, to

round or pass the mark or obstruction is to tack.

18.2 Giving Room; Keeping Clear

(a) OVERLAPPED – BASIC RULE

When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the inside

boat room to round or pass the mark or obstruction, and if the

inside boat has right of way the outside boat shall also keep clear.

Other parts of rule 18 contain exceptions to this rule.

(b) OVERLAPPED AT THE ZONE

If boats were overlapped before either of them reached the twolength

zone and the overlap is broken after one of them has reached

it, the boat that was on the outside shall continue to give the other

boat room. If the outside boat becomes clear astern or overlapped

inside the other boat, she is not entitled to room and shall keep clear.

(c) NOT OVERLAPPED AT THE ZONE

If a boat was clear ahead at the time she reached the two-length

zone, the boat clear astern shall thereafter keep clear. If the boat

clear astern becomes overlapped outside the other boat, she shall

also give the inside boat room. If the boat clear astern becomes

overlapped inside the other boat, she is not entitled to room. If the

boat that was clear ahead passes head to wind, rule 18.2(c) no

longer applies and remains inapplicable.

(d) CHANGING COURSE TO ROUND OR PASS

When after the starting signal rule 18 applies between two boats

and the right-of-way boat is changing course to round or pass a

mark, rule 16 does not apply between her and the other boat.

(e) OVERLAP RIGHTS

If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an

overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not. If the outside

boat is unable to give room when an overlap begins, rules

18.2(a) and 18.2(b) do not apply.

18.4 Gybing

When an inside overlapped right-of-way boat must gybe at a mark or

obstruction to sail her proper course, until she gybes she shall sail no

farther from the mark or obstruction than needed to sail that course.

In rule 18, room is room for an inside boat to round or pass between an

outside boat and a mark or obstruction, including room to tack or gybe

when either is a normal part of the manoeuvre.

It doesn't say "tack, gybe or set your kite". Rule 18 is a red herring.

"I suppose that the 'proper course' saga comes into play again and who is to say what the 'proper course' is for a single handed asymmetric boat which has just gybed his main and is in the process of hoisting a kite in the prevailing conditions, until the kite is set"

It is indeed about proper course but it's about L's proper course (17.1). 17.2 is irrelevant since W is required to keep clear of L anyway unless the latter is contravening 17.1. It doesn't appear that W is asserting that to be the case.

Well thanks for the contributions.  I feel pretty good now, as leeward boat I was probably in the right and doubly so since I had also did my turns.  During the turns a couple of 400s and a B14 got past but we went on to beat them all.

I guess the incident wouldn't have happened if I'd kept a better lookout but I imagine it was the distraction of having to look down into the boat to grab the wing-wang that did it.

I'd agee that the windward boat needs to keep clear, but the boat may still be on their proper course.

Proper course  is defined (loosely) “as the course you would sail to get to the next mark quickest“

Now, in order to get the kite up quickly, you need to bear off, it’s quicker to sail down wind with the kite up and my proper course is to sail in such a way as to allow me to put the kite up as quickly as possible.  BUT there are some caveats:

1, on a VERY short leg, you might be able to argue that it’s quicker to just sail the leg and forget the kite

2, If light wind, you may not need to bear off

3, in strong wind you may need to go deeper.

Sorry Scoobs, don't agree with you on this one. Proper course is indeed very loosely defined but in a protest room you would be very hard pressed to argue that your proper course was initially very low to hoist kite then high to get max speed (before bearing off when apparent wind come forward).

In any case, my second point still holds true. Two boats downwind, both sailing "different" proper courses. Windward boat keeps clear. You cannot bear away - effectively into another boat -  and demand right of way.

A couple of years ago I cleared the top mark in a "mixed" Hurricane event and raised kite. Trouble was that a two sail Huricane was below me and quite correctly intent on luffing me to death. I could have hailed for room to bear away but I think my request would have been met with derision.

(Fortunately, God sails an SX and a freak gust put the other boat mast down in a shallow estuary. Ha bloody ha. However that was the only way I was going to get past him in the short term.)

Dave,

I don't disagree in this case windward boat keeps clear.  Simple as.

If there was another situation where proper course was under consideration while putting the kite up (and I cannot think of one at present) then proper course IS to go low, put the kite up and then come back up and then bear off again zas this gets you to the next mark quickest. 

There is no way that hoisting a kite is an integral part of any mark roundiing.

So, going around the mark, the outside boat has to give way / provide room. Once you have finished rounding the mark, you then move onto the hositing the kite routine. And at that point the windward boat has to keep clear, and the leeward boat can "luff" (slowly, providing opportunity to keep clear) well above the direct course to the next mark if that is there proper course. There is no way that the windward boat can bear away in order to be able to hoist the kite.

BULL****

It all depends upon upon the wind conditions and course, of course, but in lighter winds (ie ones where I don't need to be out the rack during the rounding) I'd hope to have the kite pulling by the time we're fully round the mark. Might not always manage it, but it's an aspiration certainly. We're going for maximum speed- why wouldn't be hoisting whilst rounding?

Obviously, in bigger winds, I'll wait till we've got through the Zone of Death before moving in and forward to hoist, and we'll have cleared the mark by then, but really, there's no hard and fast rule on this.

Hi everyone,

It just shows how complicated the rules are as many experienced sailors have responded to this topic having had access to rule books and lots of time to think about the scenario.  After all this consideration there is still quite a bit of disagreement and lots of different opinions.  Nevertheless, whilst racing, we all have to make decisions like this in split seconds, often in strong winds, in testing conditions, when surrounded by many other boats (often of all different types with different sail plans) and in testing high performance boats.

I think that the topic has been a great source of learning for us all.  Redback said in his original post that the matter was resolved informally and in good spirit, which is great.  I think that part of the problem, now that we have all had chance to study the situation, is that we really needed more information to decide which rules apply.  I realise that initially it was just a brief, interesting, post by Redback who I suspect might be quite surprised with the amount of interest in the topic.  However, situations like this happen all the time in club racing, open meetings and championships.  I think that the problem has become more prevalent since the glut of asymmetric boats over the past fifteen years and particularly with asymmetric boats sailing against non-asymmetric boats.  The ‘proper course’ problem raises its head all of the time.

It seems that both boats were on tightish reaches, prior to approaching the mark in question, as neither boat was flying a kite.  It appears that the leg of the course after rounding the mark was much broader, or a run, as both boats intended to hoist kites.

It does not state whether or not the boats were clear ahead/astern on approaching the two length zone of the mark.  It does not state whether or not the boats were within the two length zone of each other, or, if they were, at what stage in relation to the mark (before, alongside or past the mark). It does not state where the boats were in relation to the mark when the leading boat started to hoist a kite (before, alongside or after the mark).  It does not state whether or not both boats had completely rounded the mark and were then on the downwind leg.  My point is that unless these facts are known then it is difficult to assess which rules apply and when.

Redback has not stated what type of boat he was sailing or what stage he was at, in the process of hoisting his kite.  In my experience, if the leading boat was say a Musto Skiff or an RS 700, and the wind was say a Force 3+, then the helm would find great difficulty in pointing up, and keeping clear, in response to a luff from the outside boat, whilst in the process of hoisting his kite, knowing full well that there might be a strong possibility of a capsize if he did luff up.  Rightly or wrongly, I suspect that he would, firstly, concentrate on safely getting his kite up and secured before getting out on the wire and then pointing up.  The circumstances would be different in lighter winds.

I can’t see how the topic can be finally resolved, with a definitive conclusion, as we, unfortunately, do not have all of the facts.

It shows how important it is, if there is an incident, to know exactly where you are in relation to other boats concerned, in relation to marks, and precise details of relative distances involved. Problems will always occur if the parties involved do not agree or can not remember exactly where an incident took place.  If an incident is not informally resolved and one or both of the parties accepts a penalty, this is where witnesses are important, particularly in cases where there is a formal protest which eventually goes to a Protest Committee for a decision.

Ian  (Yorkshire Dales S.C.)

Excellent post Ian.  Sums up why this is so difficult to do on a forum.

In the verbal description at the top of this thread, my reading is that Blue does not alter course. The animation does seem to show Blue luffing following the rounding but I'm uncertain if that is accurate. Why would Blue want to luff at this point?