As far as I know you have to wait until there is no chance of the person hitting someone or get in there way. That is while you’re doing your turns though, I don't know about traveling off the "course" to do them. There is no where that states you have to do your turns strait away. He should have waited for a more appropriate time and kept on sailing for the time being. That way he wouldn't have forced you upwind and he would have not lost as much distance.

EDIT: On re-reading your post, this has very little or no relevance to your question.

you might be able to argue that if you were effected WHILE THEY were doing their turns that they were in the wrong (and so sould have saield below the rhum line and done the turns).

But as you say they had completed the turn(s) and you were now in their shadow then you've probabably not got a leg to stand on.

When was the infrigemnet that they were doing turns for?  had they started the turn <cannot remember the wording in the rule book> quickly enough?

Oh yes you do. You must sail immediately clear of other boats and do your turns rule 44.2 says "...by promptly making two tacks and two gubes..."

Sorry but this was just bad luck

Interseting strategy, I suggest you don't try that regularly otherwise you could find yourself protested under rule 2.

GRF

Not funny, especially if you're new to racing and a definate protest if you ever meet me on the water and try it (and you can't exonerate yourself with turns)...  Everyone who sails at your club should take note!  Also your sailing committee could take action under rule 69 on the basis of your post!   I spend a lot of my time trying to get those who have just started sailing into racing it only takes one incident like that to put them off sailing for life.

GRF, "keep clear" is a different concept from not impeding progress. His only duty under the rules is to keep clear. All this means is you don't have to alter course to avoid a collision. He doesn't have to make your life comfortable for you.

Second point is that whether you are in the same race or not makes no difference, the exact same rules apply. Boats that are racing are governed by the racing rules.

Whatever way you look at it, no recourse to the rules here. There might be a matter of courtesy if the two boats are in different races, but then again it's a competetive sport, why should he ruin his race to help you uot with yours. In my view, the only courtesy that is due to other competitors is strict observation of the rules. That and not swearing! 

As I understand it the 'keep clear' boat does not have to anticipate where a 'right of way' boat might be at some indeterminate point in the future (other than a straight projection of their existing course). The RoW boat cannot alter course without giving the keep clear boat time and opportunity to do just that. If you are approaching a boat doing turns then the fastest route to the next mark (and therefore your 'proper course') is to keep well away, due to the wind & water disturbance caused by rapid tacks & gybes. Bawling at a boat doing turns is likey to produce an unexpected result. How will you predict which way she'll go to get out of your way?

Unreasonable hails do our sport no good at all, and can cause a lot of resentment. (Spoken with feeling as someone who was on the wrong end of one whilst in an abnormally high position in a championship race. I did my turns - unnecessarily as it turned out, but I didn't know it at the time. Sore?  Me?  You bet!)

Agreed that the boat doing turns has to get out of the way, but as Noah says, he does NOT have to get out of the way of what you might do in the future. He also does not have to consider what he might or might not do to your precious wind. Keeping clear air to go fast is entirely your problem.

It's not a question of sitting in an armchair quoting rules, GRF, these are the rules in the book, and therefore the rules I do my utmost to sail to, every weekend of the season. Not keen on changing the rules just cos a loudmouth in a boat he doesn't seem to like very much sails into my dirty air.

I wasn't intending to stir anything up here, I've almost always found that the most enjoyable events are the ones where the rules are strictly but impartially enforced. If you don't know the current rules - when did the mast abeam rule go? 1996? - perhaps you should be classing yourself in with those "muppets" you're so disparaging of. Having said that, I see nothing wrong with the odd hail when you KNOW you're right of way boat, but if you're just trying to scare someone into letting you have the nice clean air that you weren't sharp enough to secure for yourself, then you deserve to be protested for it and hopefully flicked.

Yes, say nothing, cos there's nothing you can legitimately complain about. If he gives you dirty air, well, "that's International yacht racing" as they say.

Yes - but I do think there is room for Race Course Management - although probably not in the way that GRF describes!!

Perception is as ever the problem.  As an example

At a windward mark rounding port hand I am on the starboard lay line.

A port tacker is approaching.  I think/perceive he would be tacking in 2 boat lengths so I hail "Don't go in there".

He is either chancing it - or perceives the situation differently, so I try again,louder, to make sure I am heard.

He bears away and goes behind.  Perception presumable altered.

On finishing racing an off duty judge who was on the water mentions that his perception was that I was bullying and on the edge on Rule 2.  (He couldn't comment on the 2 lengths - he was at the wrong angle.)

I claimed and we discussed my view that it was just Race Management, which arguable allowed both boats to end up with a better race.

Who is right?  All about perception (note that either way I changed the perception of the port tacker through my actions - either that he was in the wrong - or that I would take action (protest) if he went for the "gap".

So we need to take care about how strongly this is applied.  Frankly I was worried by the Judges's attitude.

Well what a can of worms - I'd arther sail with the stuffed shirts.  Anyway two examples for you to mull over.

1. Novice tacks on the layline at the same time as a slightly faster boat about 4 boat lengths away.  because they are novice racers they don't pull sails in and get going and faster boat nearly runs into their stern shouts abuse and sails on.  It would have added about 3 seconds for the more experienced sailor to go around them and they could have demonstrated their competance by calmly passing.  Almost certainly if there had been a collision the experienced sailor would have been in the wrong as they had ample time to avoid the novice.  Novice has never raced again.

2. The slightly better kids do this all the time, but I imagine adults might be prone to it.  Boat on port is just going to pass astern of starboard boat but thinks its fun to call Port (or even starboard!).  Boat on starboard is confussed and hesitates for several seconds then just tacks leaving port boat with nowhere to go except into them.  A protest here would be interesting (from the armchair) but the crime is the amount of damage that could occur

I'm getting bored with GRF's childish attitude to rules, so my last post on the subject. I have to say too, that rule breaking is rule breaking whether you want to dress it up as "race management" or anything else your fertile imagination comes up with.

Rules make our sport possible, and without the approach - enshrined in the rules - that sailors police themselves as well as their competitors, the whole thing falls to bits. Anyone ever sailed in Germany? Rule observance there is very poor, and for me completely spoils the racing.

Final point. If you've ever chosen not to take turns, believing that no-one would protest, or shouted and intimidated a less assertive competitor when you know you're in the wrong, then you're part of the problem. Saying "lighten up, it's not a World Championship" simply doesn't cut it. If the choice is GRF or stuffed shirts, I'm for the stuffed shirts all the way

That's me done.

Neil

GRF,

Where do you sail? 

1. RE Original post  - it's just tough. But would I ask them politely to think about not spoiling my race? I probably wouldn't if same class but might if theyre in a faster boat - especially something with a big wind shadow like say a 5K.
2. Several poor rule interpretations here - some corrected but some not - for instance - isnt Proper Course the course you would sail in absence of other boats? So potentially, it isnt even 'legal' to consider the turning boat as suggested.
3. I've sailed against GRF loads of times - he is a bit loud sometimes, but not in an intimidating manner. His rule knowledge and observance is way above average.
4. Some here are so easy to wind up. They become parsimonious when GRF does his 'thing' and as usual, exaggerates for effect. Even when he retracts  saying it was a joke - levity even, and says the 'hail' could be conversational you still keep coming back. 
5. Report him for calling someone a stuffed shirt? Talk about defining the phrase!  When Sargesail describes a hail that strictly isn't 'allowed' hardly a murmur was said about it - and certainly no condemnation. If you're gonna be stuffy at least be consistently stuffy.
6. Most good sailors do what he describes to some degree or another. Its common sense to hail to warn of your presence, to appeal for fair sailing / consideration, even perhaps to help the non ROW boat to keep clear.
7. I agree deliberately false hails are totally detestable.
8. The fact is unnoficial hails are an important part of the game - shouting 'starboard', 'water',  'windward', 'don't go in there', 'keep going / cross (me)' and others isn't intimidation, on the contrary, it's often a courtesy and helps avoid collisions. If the rules say that something that's likely to reduce collisions and potentially damage or injury is intimidation or somehow unfair sailing, then the rules are an ass. (If that were possible).
9. Let's not list how 'qualified' we are to comment - if we did that, only Sten would be allowed to say anything!

i think you would be suprised how experienced Hector is as well Worthy!

Can i also say i think everyone is ganging up on GRF!

Word. Yup x 9.  Thank you Hector.