Wow,wow, looking at some of the latest messages, maybe it's time to take a step back and review what the topic was all about in the first place,, before blood is shed!!

Being the originator of this particular discussion, I was looking to find out if a 'modern' dinghy design with a genniker rather than a symmetrical kite exsists. It must have a single wire and fits he 180kg+  combined crew weight.

Before we see class v class bashing let me state my posistion on this quite clear.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of the established classes.

I have always been a involved in all the boats that I have owned & raced, which lately  includes 'twin hulled' dinghies in the form of Dart 18, Dart 16 (having developed the Genniker version) & lately Spitfire which my son now races.

However or But, there is always a but or however! 

So far no manufacturer has come up with, or seems prepared to commit to a design, that is single wire of between 16 - 20ft length, with a genniker, that weights less than 100 kgs, that more mature 'old farts' can enjoy.

Having spent many months searching the internet, the only craft that may fit the bill is the antipodean boat called a 'Javelin'.

It bears no relation to the UK boat also called by the same name. I think Brian our NZ friend, will bear me out when I say that it's a 14ft version of the Cherub.

 Looking at the figures, it would seem that for around £5500 you can get one imported from NZ or Aus, in GRP which ain't a bad price to pay, even if initally it's the only one in the UK! Will it carry 180-190 kilo in a light breeze?  

When you consider that 10 years ago, the Laser 5000 & Iso were the fore runners for both twin & single trapese genniker designs, the twin wire brigade has spawned the Boss, 49er & RS800 as the most popular. The single wire mode has only spawned the Laser 4000.

Come on you guys, it's about time more single wire options were available.

Maybe  Phil Morrison, & Clive Everest, who are the most prolific designers of this style, can or indeed already have something up their sleeves.

Is 2005 going to be the year that us old folk got to go racing in modern boat??

REgards,

To be fair, the L4000 weight equalisation chart goes up to 94kg for helm and crew.  With a 90kg helm and 80kg crew you are only just at the minimum rack position and no lead so the answer is you are technically catered for...whether an L4000 appeals to you or not is another matter. 

Beyond that I guess the answer is probably no...unless you want to invest time and effort investing in generating a new class.

If you were going for starting a new class what about a sort of modern day Ospray or FD 18 to 20 ft The longer the hull is the less sensitive it would be for crew weight. Probably hull weight of approx 80 to 100Kg Large sail area set on a nice springy automatic rig, masthead Aysymetric

Single wire, (But I liked the original 800 idea of single or twin string depending on rack position.) possably small racks.

The longer waterline should make it deamon up wind and quite safe down easily faster than the 49er

Sounds like a very nice concept, but would it really be faster than a 49er???? After all, the 18 foot skiff is of similar length, has much more power (two more traps, more beam I assume, and much bigger rig) and it's not a huge amount faster than a 49er. If you reduce sail power and righting moment dramatically, you surely won't be "easily" faster than the 49er which will have more of the vital righting moment, due to the extra trap.

Which leads one to ask; couldn't the larger guys just kick it off by getting 18s and just using one trap, the #2 rig in light conditions and revive the #3 rig?

The "18 foot skiff trainer" Blobby was mentioning sounds interesting, I'd never heard of an Irish boat like that. Julian Bethwaite's B18/GP 18 did start off as a "trainer" for the real 18s, with the skipper just hiking and the small rig (mind you, its "small" rig was probably similar to the current 18's "big" rig).

The easiest way to get a concept like this going - and its an excellent one - is to adapt what is already there as others suggest.  To my mind why not change the wing system on something like the Boss with a modest tramp across the back for the helm and run a single trapeze for the crew.  It's fast, easily handled, very light, carbon rig and a has a very powerful and (now) well developed sail plan.   They can also be purchased cheaply at the moment and that is what is needed to have any chance of real success.  This approach will never produce a 49er beater but that is not the prime objective surely - but it would be very far from being slow !.   This approach would be much more practical and much more affordable to get started - Yes you could use an 800 in single tramp mode but it would not carry the weight as well etc etc.  I remember when the Boss  came second to the 49er in the selection trials so its worth a second look - it might even find its niche yet on a revised basis with a second PN !

I'd guess that any combined crew weight below 155-160kg would struggle and the optimum weight would be something like 170-180+kg in single wire mode.  Anyway perhaps food for thought ? 

Cheers - Mike L.

A concept like that would probably be top end speed limited down wind at the top of the wind range, but in typical UK conditions 10 to 12 Kts upwind it would be verry fast.  maybe the 49er was a bit much but in sub planing conditions waterline length is king.

The Boss is very far from 'slouchy' offwind but unlikely to be in full 49er country but the call was for a fast modern asymetric for 'adult' sized crews.  It's also fairly long and a good weight carrier.  Can be bought for peanuts currently and are well built and light.  Class appears to be dying fast so might be a good for transformation (along with the name !) to get things going in new format.

Mike L.

On the other hand large boats - like the Boss - respond slower than little boats and a trapeze is much gentler on the body and particularly the knees than a sitting-out boat, and to cap it all an asymmetric is a lot easier (and interesting) than a conventional kite.  So the idea of a 1 string Boss is a good one.  I've not sailed one so this is a bit of supposition.  But I do sail a 4000 and I used to crew a 400.  A 400 I found absolutely knackering in a breeze because its sitting out, hard, upwind and down and almost as much effort at kite hoisting.

The only thing that's hard work for the helm in a 4000 is righting the thing (and it does capsize easily).  I guess the Boss is going to be similar, except the carbon rig might help, but I recall the 400 was one hell of a stretch to the centre board from the water, even if it didn't capsize quite so much.

Yeah, I think there's a future in a 1 string Boss.

for an expansive comparison spread sheet check out...

http://www.contractsolutions.net/J18/jn-18_comparison.html - http://www.contractsolutions.net/J18/jn-18_comparison.html

WHy not get the transom ballast to heave up the kite? - he can chuck the tiller extension to the crew on the wire and then heave away on the halyard.

Helms always used to do the halyard on pole kites - tell them to stop being so lazy and get on with it...

Big boys B14 then ?  Perhaps with a chute though and perhaps a centreboard to go with the armchairs (but extra strong wings !)  However the thread was looking for a single-wire big boys (alright 'persons' then) modern asymetric.

Mike L.