Lowrider/Foiler?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3384
Printed Date: 19 Aug 25 at 6:43am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Lowrider/Foiler?
Posted By: Splosh
Subject: Lowrider/Foiler?
Date Posted: 12 Sep 07 at 7:16pm
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Do both moths have the same PY because some results on the opens show some lowriders still beating foilers? I understand there a development class so the PY should be the same (I think) or are just the lowrider sailors just bloody good? Splosh. ------------- RS300 - 346 :D |
Replies:
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 12 Sep 07 at 7:49pm
the foilers fall over a lot splosh, and in the light think how much more drag you get from the big fat t-foils. also id imangine with all the capsizing and swimming the boat out the foilers will be tired anyway ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: Splosh
Date Posted: 12 Sep 07 at 7:55pm
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What do you guys think of lowriders? i've been thinking of getting one because i want a bit of a challenge and enjoy the tippy factor (which a vortex just doesnt have Thanks, Splosh. ------------- RS300 - 346 :D |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Sep 07 at 8:31pm
| All Moths are great, foils or no... |
Posted By: aardvark_issues
Date Posted: 12 Sep 07 at 9:02pm
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None of the moth opens i've been to or seen results for this year have had a (good)low-rider beating a (good)foiler as yet... highest lowrider at the nationals was 10th out of 24... We've been to a lot of big events with no wind though, and always done poorly because of it - hopefully there will be more wind this winter! Other than that, JimC is right! |
Posted By: aardvark_issues
Date Posted: 12 Sep 07 at 9:05pm
| deleted - pressed the wrong button.... |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 12 Sep 07 at 9:32pm
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I second jims comment... all moths are fantastic, foils or not.. I want another one.
------------- |
Posted By: Ross
Date Posted: 12 Sep 07 at 11:01pm
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I want a non-foiler, simply because there is no way I could launch a foiling one at my club. I want to experiment with a kite as well, but I want to sail one first! The non-foiling boats go very cheaply by the looks of it. I'm definitely going to pick one up when I get the cash. What sort of speeds can you get out of a low rider?
------------- Ross If you can't carry it, don't sail it! |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 1:12am
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Emmett Lazich, two-time world champ, reckoned they hit a wall at about 17
knots. That's a pretty damn quick wall for an 11 foot boat without kite! Their real strength was upwind and close reaching in a breeze. |
Posted By: aardvark_issues
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 9:11am
| I reckon thats about right, I could consistently get into the 15/16 knot range in a good breeze downwind. Great fun and if you can sail them well, I reckon you can sail pretty much anything... |
Posted By: Ross
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 12:07pm
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I want one. They often go for under £500 on ebay, so 15 knots for £500 is pretty god damn good! Back on subject(ish). What handicap do they sail off?
------------- Ross If you can't carry it, don't sail it! |
Posted By: aardvark_issues
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 12:45pm
| Its pretty much irrelevant until you can tack and gybe without falling out/over/in! I used to sail my lowrider to about 400 speed at the club. |
Posted By: Splosh
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 1:11pm
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Thats quite good for me as my parents have just bought a 400 so i should be tustleing with them! Splosh ------------- RS300 - 346 :D |
Now I really want one! Why do some have t-foil rudders only and others don't, whats the advantage?Posted By: Ross
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 1:18pm
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AFAIK, T-foils stop your transom form sticking in. Some how they trick the bow wave into thinking the boat is twice it's length and makes you go faster. Or something like that. Whatever it does, it makes you go faster. In conclusion: T-foils = GOOD! There was a very informative article in a recent issue of Y&Y which I am yet to read. What issue was it? ------------- Ross If you can't carry it, don't sail it! |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 2:22pm
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Tfoils in moths are there for different reasons to the 14/cherub foils. Moth Ts are primarly to damp out the pitching motion and make the boat much easier to sail... virtualy all the skinny boats should have them, and if they dont they should do. I snapped the T off the bottom of my rudder launching once and carried on trying to sail without it (the main rudder was unaffected... just with some messy splinters on the bottom) and it completely transformed the boat. ------------- |
Posted By: Ross
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 2:32pm
I'm assuming your talking about the moth. ------------- Ross If you can't carry it, don't sail it! |
Posted By: Smight at BBSC
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 4:52pm
I think so ross  ------------- RS600 988 |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 5:06pm
Yep it was the moth T I broke.... The cherub T could survive a nuclear winter ------------- |
Posted By: Smight at BBSC
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 5:09pm
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Yea it was preety hefty unlike the dagger board ------------- RS600 988 |
Posted By: Splosh
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 5:26pm
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so moths are easy to break then? what about spares, how hard are they to collect? new sails? etc. splosh ------------- RS300 - 346 :D |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 5:48pm
Every moth is different and whether anything breaks or not depends on how well it was built and to what tollerences. 'If it doesnt break its built too heavy. If it breaks its built too light.' The newer pro built moths (the hungry tigers, prowlers, mistreses, bladeriders) should be pretty much bulletproof. Spares avalability depends entirely on what you want an who you want it from. Some stuff has to be imported from down under - Other bits can be found in your local chandler or built in your shed. ------------- |
Posted By: Mopps
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 6:32pm
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i just read up on it and supposedly moths are sailing to a py of 986 which seems highly unfair to me but i guess that's taking into account lowriders and foilers ------------- I am the boatwhore B14 694 |
Posted By: Smight at BBSC
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 7:27pm
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But if you think about how fast the average moth sailor will go, round a course. it seems quite reasonable. Most of the most sailors arn't world class(i'm guessing) so they won't go too quickly ------------- RS600 988 |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 8:40pm
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One of the only troubles with Moth's at the moment as far as i can see is the lack of available low rider trainer boats. Stuff around the Magnum 8 era is getting old and harder to come by and can be fragile. I had a Mag 5 a few years back and that was delicate enough back then. Its going to be hard to step into a Skippy 1 or early Axeman for the vast majority of sailors. ( and I know what they say about narrow Moths being easier to sail than fat moths, but you've got to keep the thing upright first ) It's a difficult call financially to build a trainer moth, but i suppose at some point the class / builders / individuals are going to have to bite that bullet. May be something like this:  ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 8:47pm
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and there was I the other day saying I never have any problems with posting on this forum. Sorry G.R.F Can anyone see the pic I posted? Note to self: don't put a © symbol on the file name if you want it to post! ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: k_kirk
Date Posted: 16 Sep 07 at 3:33am
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I can see it.
------------- http://gaijinonfoils.blogspot.com/ - Gaijin on Foils |
Posted By: BlueMouse
Date Posted: 17 Sep 07 at 11:34pm
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The moth class currently recommends a trial PY of 840 for foilers, compared to the RYA 2007 PN of 980 for a lowrider. In practice there are not that many modern moths still being sailed as lowriders though. For older moths the class suggests club yardsticks as follows: PY 1020 - Magnum 9 and 9.5, Axeman 2 to 5, Pearce 6, Blitz 2 to 3, Australian Axeman and equivalent designs first built between 1989 and 1995 such as the Ghoul 3.PY 1060 - Magnum 8, Axeman 1, Blitz1, Ghoul 1 and 2, and Gentleman JimPY 1100 - Magnum 5 and 6PY 1115 - Magnum 3 and 4 and any other designs of Moth still racing built in the early 1980s or before.
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Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 18 Sep 07 at 8:47am
| The problem with older Moths, Magnums ect., is that they are fragile when learning. I am sure that an experienced Moth sailor would have no problem but it is only to easy to put your foot through when struggling to master the thing. My boy had fun with his Magnum 8 but only because he had a doting father with a car full of tools on standby. (that boat is for sale again on Boats and Outboards and it is quite good). It did occur to me when we owned it that one answer would have been to build a simple "trainer" hull in ply with a flat bottom and square corners taped up then temporairily transfer all the bits. The Magnun 8 is almost a spaceframe anyway. There's a thought, perhaps the Assoc. could build a few hulls like that and lend them out to prospective Mothies. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Sep 07 at 9:08am
| No need for a Moth trainer nowadays. If you can race an RS300 competently round the track in all racing conditions a Moth won't be that hard to learn. |
Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 18 Sep 07 at 9:24am
| Mmmmmm.... Jimco, not so sure about that. 300 wings and extra length do provide that security factor which the short Moth with racks cannot. My boy won a 300 open with little practice whilst still struggling with the old Moth. |
Posted By: aardvark_issues
Date Posted: 18 Sep 07 at 9:39am
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Scarily, newer moths are easier. A 12 sailing friend of mind got into my moth and managed to get foiling pretty much straight away. The most unstable boat he's sailed up to that point was a Europe! Going around corners was a different ball game however... Not sailed a 300 as yet, so can't compare directly, but new lowriders are easier to sail than the old Mag8's |
Posted By: m_liddell
Date Posted: 18 Sep 07 at 1:01pm
| I was attracted to the idea of a lowrider moth until I saw some of the fleet try and get away from the beach at weston.... I think I'll stick to trap/asy boats. |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 18 Sep 07 at 1:42pm
Are you talking about Silver Samurai? and isn't going around the corners always the skill full unstable bit. + most new lowriders are easier as they all have nice light carbon rigs an Mag 8 normally has a heavy bit of tin. i would of thought something around the width of an 8 but a bit thinner with the advantage of a black stick would enable you to learn the skills required in Mothing including the corners. As well as having the ability to stick some foils on it and get the basics dialed, all be it in a bit more wind than the skinny hulls ( but not much ). ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Smight at BBSC
Date Posted: 19 Sep 07 at 3:13pm
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I wouldn't let it put you off i'm sure in a few years when hydrofoils creep into trap/asy boats we'll all be launching like that ------------- RS600 988 |
Posted By: aardvark_issues
Date Posted: 19 Sep 07 at 3:28pm
| So you were put off a lowrider Moth by watching the foilers all launching? |
Posted By: foaminatthedeck
Date Posted: 19 Sep 07 at 5:27pm
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My post didn't make much sence after a re-read. ------------- Lark 2170 |
Posted By: Smight at BBSC
Date Posted: 19 Sep 07 at 5:58pm
kind of... it looks like a challange just to get them launched let alone sail one  ------------- RS600 988 |
Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 20 Sep 07 at 7:51am
Since when did that stop anyone posting on this forum? ------------- http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/index.html - Lancing SC 
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Posted By: m_liddell
Date Posted: 20 Sep 07 at 7:57pm
This was a few years back so about 1/3 - half of them were lowriders. My friend was on about getting a moth and we were commenting on how hard it looked as we watched many wobble around and capsize trying to get away. Then a girl launched and got away cleanly and this seemed to persuade him that getting one was still a viable option |