yet another 600 thread...
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3346
Printed Date: 19 Aug 25 at 6:26am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: yet another 600 thread...
Posted By: mike ellis
Subject: yet another 600 thread...
Date Posted: 03 Sep 07 at 10:12am
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hi, i've been looking at a 600 second this weekend, its quite an old boat (672) with an angel mast. the hull is in great condition and so are the sails (there are 2 and one looks brand new). but whilst i was chatting to the owner he mentioned that sometimes when the boat hits a wave the forestay goes so slack that the tenioning block hits the foredeck. is this normal for angel masts or old boats? should i be worried? edit: also the mast is in need of re-varnishing, any advice on how to do this would be apreciated. ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Replies:
Posted By: Splosh
Date Posted: 03 Sep 07 at 10:59am
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My brother has a yellow 600 but his has a superspars mast. Before buying a 600 we spoke to RS and they said DO NOT buy a 600 with a angel mast because they over flex and are not as good quality as a superspars one. Also on angel mast the common problem is with the track up the mast which may crack and therefore you will struggle to get the sail up (this happened to my mates pink 600wit a angel). you can use most international yacht varnish to do your mast and its a fairly simple job. ------------- RS300 - 346 :D |
Posted By: Smight at BBSC
Date Posted: 03 Sep 07 at 1:33pm
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There is a reason that lots of cherubs have repaired angel masts ------------- RS600 988 |
Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 03 Sep 07 at 2:06pm
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I've had both and they a very different. I had a contender for a few years and almost immediately could appreciate what a great boat is was. It took very little time to be sailing it relatively close to its potential. On the other hand the 600 was much harder to sail well (and therefore to fully enjoy). It was fraustrating because I rarely thought that I was anywhere near the its potential On the rare days when everything went well it was amazing but equally could leave you frustrated (wetand bleeding too !). I think the boat just needs lots of time to learn to handle it well - if you have that its great. I think my tale is quite acommon one for the 600 - lots of people never quite got to grips with them and have therefore passeed them on. The contender appears to gain longer term support. Neither were great when it was light but the 6 was definitely less ponderous in these conditions. When it was breezy I preferred to contender - esp on the sea. I'd be very suprised if the tale about about the tensioning block hitting the foredeck in waves was correct unless the rigging was all wrong.
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Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 03 Sep 07 at 2:38pm
Yeah... it's called Ben Brown (see Cherub class site), who made most of them  ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Ross
Date Posted: 03 Sep 07 at 3:04pm
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Plus the contender is a hugely sucsesful class, just look at the worlds.
------------- Ross If you can't carry it, don't sail it! |
Posted By: MRJP BUZZ 585
Date Posted: 03 Sep 07 at 6:36pm
Or it could be when the small rig is on, on my mates 600 the tension goes block to block when its on small rig ------------- Josh Preater http://www.bu22.co.uk">  BUZZING IS FUN
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Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 03 Sep 07 at 6:41pm
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no the guy said it was on the big rig and the tension block was were it should be until it hit the deck. so should i be worried? ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 03 Sep 07 at 7:05pm
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If thats there case there must be something fairly major going on. I never noticed the forestay comimg slack even - however breezy it was. Perhaps the diamonds are so slack that the mast is over flexing - still cant see it though. |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 03 Sep 07 at 7:34pm
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hmmm, perhaps this boat is best avoided then. ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 03 Sep 07 at 9:10pm
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I think he's talking bull!
The forestays have a tendancy to go fairly loose in heavy airs downwind if you arnt hooked on, but not to the point of touching the deck, maybe 3-4 inches of slop at worst assuming hes put on enough tension in the first place. The boats are bullet proof so I'd say he's exagerating. Paul |
Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 03 Sep 07 at 9:40pm
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Mike. I was in a similar position to you a few weeks ago ... coming straight from a Topper, albeit crewing a LOT in cherubs/14's/Fireball's. I've had the six for about 2 months now, maybe slightly less ... and I don't think the tales of 600's being massively tricky are necessarily true. The first time I sailed was a F4, and I was using the big rig, which was just too much bearing in mind I'm about 65kg sailing with small racks which is far too light... and yes, I agree, it was f*cking hard. Could barely tack etc. Next week, I sorted the boat for the small rig, and went out in a F3 ish. It COMPLETELY changed the boat, tacking was easy as hell, just like a 'normal' boat, and I could just be flat one the wire, helming (fairly) well. Still capsised a bit, but not too much. Anyway, I'd say go for it mate, I'm 16 and am thoroughly LOVING it ... my suggestion would be to make sure you DO learn how to sail the boat on the small rig first, and trust me, it still has a nice load of power to give, and you'll be quicker and sailing better than if you struggle along with the big rig! As for tension... Yeah I'm using small rig and I pull a fair amount on before I go sailing, a nice hard, pull. Never noticed any floppy forestay?
Hope it's helpful, feel free to PM.
Franko ------------- -[Franko]- Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club RS600 933 |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 04 Sep 07 at 10:55am
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i havent got a problem with knowing its what i want, just this particular boat might be a bit dodgy if something bends that much. ive been mucking about in the demo boat a lot and have been doing the corresponding amount of swimming (a lot) but im getting better and am definately going to get a 600. ive nearly sorted out tacking in more then 15 knots now. ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: Femto
Date Posted: 04 Sep 07 at 2:36pm
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Hi Mike, Its fairly normal to see the forestay go slack in the 600 when sailing downwind in big breeze, its connected a pretty bendy carbon stick after all. I've always been amazed at what the mast puts up with- pitchpoling straight downwind in a 35 knot gust has to put some pretty serious stress on all parts of the rig. I do however think that this guys description of the cleat touching the deck is a bit unlikely. The earlier boats are generally very solid and well built so don't let age put you off. The problem with the angel mast is that it has an aluminium sleeve which tends to corrode with age if sailed in sea water, resulting in delamination and weakness just above the mast join. The mast itself is said by some to have better bend characteristics for light sailors. Don't be instantly put off by an angel mast- if it has survived this long it probably is fine. At £1150 for a replacement mast be sure to not to scrimp on insurance for either!!! So any other forumites coming down to the 600 nationals in Torquay?? Cheers, Mark, Rs600 Class rep GBR717 ------------- RS600 717, RS400 870 Netley SC Kerr 11.3 (Pier View YC) |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 04 Sep 07 at 3:38pm
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This angel stick has had the aluminium sleeve replaced with a carbon sleeve, will anyone complain about that? (i wont as i am a sea sailor but what would other 600 sailors say (class rules)) ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: 29er397
Date Posted: 04 Sep 07 at 5:10pm
Sounds like he is over exagerating about the tensioning jobbie hitting the deck. And i would also think that if an Angel mast has lasted this long, its likely to last a while longer to say the least! but still use it as an excuse to get the boat for cheaperif you can! Im not sure about the idea of going for the small rig by the way, im not far over 65kg and i dont tend to struggle too much untill its gets very breezy and wavey. I would have thought going with the big rig all the time would soon enough improve your sailing that you wont struggle at all. Also, buy it now and you could manage the nats next week!!! ------------- http://www.kielderwatersc.org - Kielder Water Sailing Club |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Sep 07 at 5:26pm
| If it hasn't got the stupid alloy sleeve it ought to be OK... |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 04 Sep 07 at 7:56pm
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where??????? ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: MRJP BUZZ 585
Date Posted: 04 Sep 07 at 8:35pm
Edit - Sorry, this is in response to mikes question ------------- Josh Preater http://www.bu22.co.uk"> BUZZING IS FUN
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Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 04 Sep 07 at 9:13pm
yes alright i didnt read it ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: 29er397
Date Posted: 04 Sep 07 at 10:33pm
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i should correct myself really, it starts on this thursday, should be a good 4 days. not sure if any other of the more northern/scottish guys are coming, we shall see! ------------- http://www.kielderwatersc.org - Kielder Water Sailing Club |
Posted By: scummers
Date Posted: 05 Sep 07 at 11:37am
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Hi, Ive had my 600 for 2 years now (781) and pretty much taken it out in
anything (up to a f7 the other week) with an angel stick without any bother and i have to say that i dont see how the super spars mast is any better to be honest, the ss masts seem to be of fairly poor quality having dealt with them for many different boats, phantoms n12's etc and to be honest they seem flimsy and of poor quality when compared to either a handmade one, e.g. angel 600 mast, or filament wound e.g. selden. cst spars, etc. i think the angel mast gets far too much stick for what is a great bit of kit, it is far more sturdy and well finished than the ss and looks a alot better if properly looked after and varnished. whilst i have had issues with the mast track, they are alot more sturdy than i plastic glued on one. and to be honest alot of the failure with the early masts can't entirely be attributed to the construction of it, if anything the lack of experience of people in sailing 600's early on and now with far more trapeze classes and also the far greater understanding of how to take care of carbon spars now is a far greater cause of masts being more reliable these days. also have to agree with the forestay going slack, but only had that when in big waves when boat is slamming and probably not enought tension on. sounds like their boat has some serious forestay issues if the tensioner is hitting the deck as on mine the cleat is a good foot off the deck. |
Posted By: Smight at BBSC
Date Posted: 05 Sep 07 at 7:26pm
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On another non-forstay related topic are you aloud to miss out the block and cleat on the floor and just take it off the boom? http://fotoboat.thirdlight.com/viewpicture.tlx?albumid=114642&pictureid=5006602 - http://fotoboat.thirdlight.com/viewpicture.tlx?albumid=11464 2&pictureid=5006602 This guy obviously thinks so http://www.rs-association.com/docs/RS600Rulesv2%205_1_06.pdf - http://www.rs-association.com/docs/RS600Rulesv2%205_1_06.pdf part 1.2.11 ------------- RS600 988 |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 05 Sep 07 at 8:25pm
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the top link doesnt work smight reading the class rules, 1.3.16, about control line take ups. they may be "altered or improved" in any way, so does that mean that you can have blocks instead of plastic rings on the racks, or is this only allowed on the elastics (back of the rack) ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: Smight at BBSC
Date Posted: 05 Sep 07 at 10:54pm
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If it were allowed or made any differnece i think the top guys would all have it . Sorry about the top link but the jist of the picture was a guy with off the boom sheeting on a 600
------------- RS600 988 |
Posted By: Villan
Date Posted: 05 Sep 07 at 11:11pm
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I'm sure its fine to take it straight from the boom when your going downwind. Its not a permanent setup, its probably just easier / more comfortable. Why pull in all that rope through the mainsheet block as you go over waves, when you can just pull the boom in a little? Thats almost like asking wether you should be allowed to grab the falls of the mainsheet to help it across during a gybe. ------------- Vareo - 149 "Secrets" http://www.TandyUKServers.co.uk" rel="nofollow - TandyUK Servers |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 06 Sep 07 at 7:23pm
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Some guy tried taking the main off the boom at the Nationals in Phwelli back in 2000 but I think he was only just in the top half of the fleet. He even went to the hassle of removing the swivel base and cleat completely.
Regarding the plastic rings, why bother with blocks ? the rings are only acting as a means of holding the controls out on the wings. The controls dont have to run through them particularly well as long as the elastic takes up the tension. Certainly lighter and cheaper than carrying around 6 extra blocks on the boat. |
Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 06 Sep 07 at 9:24pm
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Mike, dunno if you're interested but I know someone who's wanting to sell their six. The price was 1.3/1.2k at a push as he needs rid of it. PM. for details!
------------- -[Franko]- Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club RS600 933 |
Posted By: Jimbob
Date Posted: 06 Sep 07 at 11:27pm
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There really is a lot of bullsh*t written about the 600.
Angel v Superspar masts. Most people who have sailed with both think Angel is better, All old 600 masts can have problems. After all they do get a lot of bashing about by people learning to sail the boat. Old Superspars can have problems with the mast track. Angels with the aluminium bottom mast connector, but only if sailed on the sea and not looked after. Mast flexibility; there are diamonds and forestay tension to control that. Sheeting from the boom is not fast upwind. The 600 goes best upwind in light/medium winds when the leech is mainly under MSHT control. On a run or very broad reach in big winds the mast bends well forward and is sloppy unless you use a lot of MSHT and/or Kicker tension tension to control it. But that is slower than loose and sloppy. You takes your pick depending on how brave you are. The Contender is a beautiful looking boat but is past its sell by date. Haven't sailed one, but have raced them, and purely on speed, the 600 gives more bang for the buck. The learning curve for the 600 is steep but when you achieve some mastery (none of us ever attain complete mastery) you have a great sense of achievement. ------------- Jimbob |
Posted By: Ross
Date Posted: 06 Sep 07 at 11:44pm
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The Contender is like the E-type Jag, it never gets old. A classic design.
------------- Ross If you can't carry it, don't sail it! |
Posted By: aardvark_issues
Date Posted: 07 Sep 07 at 12:13am
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Yeah, but it drives rubbish compared to an Elise... |
Posted By: Smight at BBSC
Date Posted: 10 Sep 07 at 6:41pm
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Also i think some of the 600ers are putting a block at the bottom of the forstay instea of it going through the u-bolt. I'm going to try it out this weekend ------------- RS600 988 |
Posted By: 29er397
Date Posted: 10 Sep 07 at 8:07pm
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The boat coems rigged with a block on the U-bolt already i think, if its taken off, its likely that its because the boat was used with the kiddy rig, and its been taken off to get the required rig tension. There is to be a rule re-wording in the near future, so that you can do pretty much whatever you like with the control line take-ups, so long as they dont hav any effect on the mechanical worikings of the system. So blocks on the wings etc would be fine. Although, i did hav blocks, i switched back to rings for the nats, just to be sure of rules etc, and there is little or no difference, they run fine without. ------------- http://www.kielderwatersc.org - Kielder Water Sailing Club |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 10 Sep 07 at 8:32pm
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i think the re-wording has already happened looking at the rules. and i thought the block was standard smight. ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: Smight at BBSC
Date Posted: 10 Sep 07 at 8:36pm
Good to know cheers guys  ------------- RS600 988 |
Posted By: Sailing Tinker
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 5:58pm
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Hi Dont want to massivley change the subject but i wondered if you clold give me some advise. I want to get a 600, im 14 and have lots of experiance crewing a laser 3000. I also sail a topper and race it. I really want a singlehanded trapeze boat. ------------- Mark Laser 3000 3520 |
Posted By: Smight at BBSC
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 6:07pm
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How heavy are you? How big is the club you sail at? Are there any others there? ------------- RS600 988 |
Posted By: Ross
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 6:08pm
Might be best if you wait a while yet. Enjoy sailing what you have at the moment, because if you jump into a 600 (if it's anything like the contender) you wont have the weight or the physical strength to sail it at 14. I was in a topper squad at your age and racing in big fleets with big courses was bloody good fun! Especially when the wind got up. 3000 is good fun as well. ------------- Ross If you can't carry it, don't sail it! |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 7:43pm
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well i dont think the 600 is too physical but t 14 weight might definately be an issue, but if you think you can do it, go for it! ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: Sailing Tinker
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 8:35pm
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I'm a prop in rugby and i am 10 1/2 stone. About 65 kg. so quite a heavy lump ------------- Mark Laser 3000 3520 |
great fun. I sale at one of the lakes at cotswolds, called white fryers, and there is another 600 there.Posted By: HannahJ
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 9:19pm
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Ask if you can have a go before you buy one.
------------- MIRROR 64799 "Dolphin" The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist hopes it will change; the realist adjusts the sail |
Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 14 Sep 07 at 9:22am
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65kgs could be seen as "heavy lump" when you're 13, like Sailing Tinker. For all we know, he might only be 5'2", still be waiting for his growth spurt. But 65kgs doesn't seem that much on a 600... I should know, at 60kgs on a Contender ------------- http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/index.html - Lancing SC 
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Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 14 Sep 07 at 9:58am
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ROFLMAO......... I'd have offers as an extra for the remake of Bridge Over The River Kwai rolling in if I weighed 65kgs. Good grief I think Hobbits weigh more than that. Sorry, don't mean to be rude........ Just feeling a bit assertive this morning |
Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 14 Sep 07 at 10:06am
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I was 65Kg at uni, have bulked out to a massive 68kg, and i didn't have too much trouble sailing a 600, did have the big wings though ------------- I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e! |
Posted By: charlie1019
Date Posted: 14 Sep 07 at 11:07am
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65kg is fine in a 600. Its all about technique and practice: not giving up the first time it chucks you in the water!
Some wide wings on open water though would help - but who likes being underpowered... |
Posted By: English Dave
Date Posted: 14 Sep 07 at 11:19am
You fat bas ------------- English Dave http://www.ballyholme.com - Ballyholme Yacht Club (You'd think I'd be better at it by now) Hurricane 5.9 SX RS700 |
d! I'm only a slim 92kg!Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 14 Sep 07 at 12:05pm
Mincing lightweight poofs. I'm also better looking than you
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Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 14 Sep 07 at 12:13pm
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And the Opsrey is a fine-looking boat! ------------- http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/index.html - Lancing SC
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Posted By: charlie1019
Date Posted: 14 Sep 07 at 12:17pm
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What you have to remember is that us 68kg sailors have no problem nimbly dancing over the top of the wing as the boat comes up! Sometimes being lightweight has its advantages and actually makes it easier to sail the boat. If your happy swimming ocasionally for 6 months while you learn to grasp the basic handling, you'll be fine... but it is a boat that you need to sail regually to get to grips with! |
Posted By: tedm
Date Posted: 14 Sep 07 at 3:31pm
I'm just shy of 90kgs and always went around the front of the wings when righting the boat (which I did A LOT). Gives you the opportunity of nipping around the front of the mast if necessary to stop the d**n thing going straight back over Thanksfully the Musto is very well behaved when it comes upright......just sits there waiting
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Posted By: Smight at BBSC
Date Posted: 14 Sep 07 at 5:02pm
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I much prefer to be slightly underweight for a boat than to be overweight. ------------- RS600 988 |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 14 Sep 07 at 5:40pm
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sorry but a 65kg prop??? get some pies down your neck mate! but for 600 sailing 65kg shouldnt be bad at all, just sail it REGULARLY (i had most of my study leave this year and then lots of time in a long summer holiday sailing practically every day to get to grips with the beast (the demo boat). ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: 29er397
Date Posted: 15 Sep 07 at 10:48pm
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you'll be fine, i havn't done all that much sailing in mine, i weigh just over 65kg, and i love the boat, and only really struggle when the waves get BIG! Wide racks help alot with upwind speed, you can really get the boat flowing with them, i never really managed with the small wings. I would say i'm a better stronger wind sailor, even as a lightweight, its much more a technique thing than a weight issue, after all, the cunnigham on the 600 de-powers the rig something silly! ------------- http://www.kielderwatersc.org - Kielder Water Sailing Club |
Posted By: Sailing Tinker
Date Posted: 16 Sep 07 at 6:21pm
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As i have a whole family into sailing i would like to save up and get my own boat. So i can sail it all the time. So would i be ok with the narrow bars utill i have enough money. I sail in a lake so the only waves are from the life boat.
------------- Mark Laser 3000 3520 |
Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 16 Sep 07 at 7:43pm
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There is the Cheapest 600 in the world on apollo duck with big wings at mo. ------------- |
Posted By: Sailing Tinker
Date Posted: 16 Sep 07 at 8:28pm
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Yes but it will probs take me til next season to get enough money.
------------- Mark Laser 3000 3520 |
so i will keep dreaming for the while.