Dinghy development: Rule 42 (yellow flag)Question

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Rule 42 (yellow flag)Question

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3330
Printed Date: 19 Aug 25 at 4:14am
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Topic: Rule 42 (yellow flag)Question

Posted By: limey
Subject: Rule 42 (yellow flag)Question
Date Posted: 29 Aug 07 at 3:56pm

If someone receives a yellow flag for an infringement of rule 42 immediately after the start of a race , but there is then a general recall due to the number of boats over the line does the yellow flag stand and why ??

Replies:

Posted By: Worthy
Date Posted: 29 Aug 07 at 4:22pm

I don't know the answer, but surely once the start has been aborted (which is on the start gun) you aren't racing so can't get a yellow flag.

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Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 29 Aug 07 at 4:42pm

Interesting question.

Racing A boat is racing from her preparatory signal until she finishes and clears the finishing line and marks or retires, or until the race committee signals a general recall, postponement or abandonment.

So suppose you take a yellow flag penalty between the preparatory signal and the moment the general recall is sounded.

44.3a says: A boat takes a Scoring Penalty by displaying a yellow flag at the first reasonable opportunity after the incident, keeping it displayed until finishing, and calling the race committee’s attention to it at the finishing line.

But a general recall is not a finish.

Finish A boat finishes when any part of her hull, or crew or equipment in normal position, crosses the finishing line in the direction of the course from the last mark, either for the first time or after taking a penalty under rule 31.2 or 44.2 or, under rule 28.1, after correcting an error made at the finishing line

So in my view, you are stuck with the yellow flag penalty even though there was a subsequent general recall.

Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 29 Aug 07 at 4:45pm

Originally posted by Worthy

I don't know the answer, but surely once the start has been aborted (which is on the start gun)

I don't think that's quite correct. The general recall is signalled when 1st substitute goes up, which is likely to be a few seconds later. In the meantime, you are racing.

Posted By: Worthy
Date Posted: 29 Aug 07 at 4:55pm

But the decision is made at the instant the class flag comes down. It is an interesting one, especially as some penalties specifically carry over after a general recall eg a black flag

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Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 29 Aug 07 at 5:20pm

Originally posted by Worthy

But the decision is made at the instant the class flag comes down.

No it isn't. The class flag coming down is the start signal. The race officer then decides whether the start is clear, single or general recall. It normally takes several seconds to decide to signal general recall and sometimes longer. I can think of plenty of times I've sailed for 15 seconds or more before the general recall is signalled. Plenty of time to get into trouble!

Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 29 Aug 07 at 5:28pm

But you get a new Prep. Signal as part of the re-start after the general recall......

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Posted By: Worthy
Date Posted: 29 Aug 07 at 5:42pm

Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Yer, but no, but yer, but no, but......

My Vicky Pollard impression is terrible!!

I think I will stick to what I said first.

Originally posted by Worthy

I don't know the answer

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Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 29 Aug 07 at 5:47pm

I refer you directly to appendix P....

http://www.sailing.org/RRS2005/Appendix%20P.pdf

Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 29 Aug 07 at 6:00pm

My mistake, I thought the question was about alternative penalty yellow flags.

Posted By: limey
Date Posted: 29 Aug 07 at 7:56pm

JUST

Posted By: limey
Date Posted: 29 Aug 07 at 8:14pm

Just to add a little more detail. The offence occurred about 5 seconds after the start and the offender immediately took his penalty turns (first offence). Within a couple of seconds of that the recall gun was fired (boats further up the line obscured the flags on the committee boat ). My query is this; a black flag disqualification refers to an incident which happens before the start (i.e boats ocs before the starting gun). Surely in the case of a general recall the race is no longer valid as soon as the starting gun is fired (at which point the RC has decided he is unable to identify a large proportion of the fleet which is over the line) irrespective of whether the recall gun is fired 10, 30 or even 60 seconds after the start !!

Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 29 Aug 07 at 10:04pm

Originally posted by limey

Surely in the case of a general recall the race is no longer valid as soon as the starting gun is fired (at which point the RC has decided he is unable to identify a large proportion of the fleet which is over the line) irrespective of whether the recall gun is fired 10, 30 or even 60 seconds after the start !!

No - the start is only recalled ("invalid" - but I don't like the term) once the RC has made the general recall signal correctly. Until that point in time all competitors should assume that the start is good. Hence why the decent RC's rib the 1st Sub flag across the front of the fleet.

I don't like the term invalid as under black flag rules then a general recalled start is not 'invalid' as people will get lobbed, and therefore there has to be some 'validity' to that process, even if 10 boats get scored DSQ.

Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 30 Aug 07 at 7:20am

Originally posted by limey

Surely in the case of a general recall the race is no longer valid as soon as the starting gun is fired

No, you are racing until 1st substitute goes up. See the definition of "racing" I posted earlier in this thread.

Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 30 Aug 07 at 7:05pm

a first penalty has been awarded - and turns taken. A repeat offence, at any time during the regatta or series, correctly yellow flagged would mean the competitor should retire from the race.

Gordon

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Gordon