Hi guys,

I’m new to this forum and to introduce my self a bit when I was a bit younger I sailed and did some levels (can’t remember which) but they were quite basic. My grandfather used to sail quite competitively and won quite a few things and my uncial owns a 42 foot Bavaria which I go on occasionally and my aunty part owns a 36 foot something so I’m from quite a sailing backround.

Any who what I was wondering was, I want to get back into it again and am interested in a small dingy. I don’t know why but a vago really jumps out at me. Probably the XD version.

Basically I want a good value (which is probably one thing the xd isn’t, correct me if I’m wrong) good looking boat which is fairly straight forward but also has room for the sailor to improve.

Your input would be greatly appreciated and I’d love to hear form any one who has a vago,

Cheers guys

Bavaria

Well, if you look back through the forum you'll see there has been a lot of discusion about the Vago.  Mostly it has been negative but it has often been by people who haven't sailed the boat.

I'm trying to stay objective but I'd have to say the Vago was trumpeted by Laser to be something it isn't.  It is probably a good low maintenance skiff type trainer for teenagers and light adults.  There are plenty of other boats which fit the same category - Laser3000, Topper Buz, the slower 405 and the thoroughbred 29er.  They all have their strengths and weaknesses for instance the Buz could be cheaper 2nd hand and the 405 is easier to sail and slower, the 29er is considerably faster but tricky.

If you fit the bill, light and new to this sort of boat then the Vago might suit.

Thanks for that, what do you think of the RS400 btw? Or is it a very hard boat for one person? 

Maybe you should look at a single handed boat rather than a 2 handed boat. Boats that are suposed to have 2 people in should have 2 people in. Comprimises like the vago don't normally work.

Ok well I’d be sailing on a lake (although I would no dout move to sailing at sea when I get more confident and into it), single handed but I’d like there to be room the odd visitor! I’m not very competitive but I still have a need for speed so verging on some thing pretty fast I suppose. I weigh 11 stone and how physically demanding do I want my boat to be??... Moderate I suppose. I mean I want some thing with a bit of attitude and not a push over if you get my drift?

Any suggestions?

I will go down to http://www.sailfrensham.org.uk/ -  

Sorry these are probably questions you always get asked!!

Don't apologise - we all love talking sailing here. 

The RS400 has the sort of sail area and stablilty which requires about 24 stone sitting hard over the side in any sort of breeze.  So its not going to be any good what-so-ever for single handing an 11 stoner.  So the sort of boat you choose should reflect your weight and how many are going to sail it.  In addition the wind is generally lighter inland than on the sea - so this too is a factor.

I'm glad you are going to a sailing club - you should then see what the parameters are.

Other factors to consider - wood, plastic, glassfibre or something more exotic?  Trapeze, wings, sliding seat or not?  Spinaker or genaker, with a foresail or not?  And finally - cost.

So you see you need to do quite a bit of research first and the best place for that is on the water, but this was a good place to start.

I'd agree with TT that the Vareo jumps out as being a good choice. But don't give up on the Vago idea. I've now sailed the XD single handed with kite and it's lively enough but accessable for a single hander (although I'm 90 kg) while having enough room for a crew if you want. It was marketed as being as fast as a L4000 while being suitable for 1 or 2 people and being as easy to sail as a L2000.

In my experience it falls between the L2K and 4K in terms of speed and ease of sail. However, it does work for both 1 and 2 people as the gennaker launch is fairly straight forward to do single handed. Compared to any similar GRP boat it is heavy but is reasonably maintenance free.

Yer pays yer money etc....

But do check out (as other have said) what else is being sailed near you. More cameraderie, you'll develop faster and you'll be able to cadge spares if something breaks on regatta day.

I'm thinking the same thing! Out of interest which is quicker, the all singing all dancing version of the vago or the all singing all dancing version of the vareo? Also if i wanted to go to sailing at sea whould the vareo be able to hack it??

Cheers guys for all you replys btw.

Assuming Frensham allow it, a Laser 3000 would suit your purposes well. With a jib furler you can sail it as a hiking boat on main alone, then add use of the jib, trapeze and gennaker as experience and conditions permit. If you want to sail two-up, anyone between 7 and at least 11-12 stone will leave you still competitive in racing.

Check out the long (4-page) singlehanded thread on the 3k forum: 

http://www.3000class.org.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=217 - http://www.3000class.org.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=217

I have sailed all the boats mentioned.

The 3000 is fine if you are fairly short and only have a sort crew as the boom is fairly low. I haven't tried it single handed but as they said I don't really see a problem.

I found the vareo fairly easy to sail but a bit dull upwind. Better downwind with the kite up but not very exciting. Probably big enough for a passenger, but there won't be much for them to do unless you let them have the mainsheet and kite sheet.

The rs500 is designed for lightweight/youths, I spent quite some time talking to Nick Peters about it. Again you probably could single hand it but it is designed as a double hander.

The 200 and 400 are not that easy to sail single handed. They are hiking boats that really need 2 people to keep flat. The 200 less then the 400 though.

The Vago does actually work quite well as a compromise. It is fairly easy to single hand, with either main and kite or all 3 sails. It easily takes 24 stone/160 kilos 2 up and is still quite fast. The developers with some rock stars sailing it got the PY to about 995 or a bit lower, but not many people who sail it would be able to do this as it is mostly sailed by beginners or returners.

As a first boat it is probably the best choice if you can ignore the prejudice about it being a plastic rather than GRP.

If you do go for one then I would advise getting the XD rig with a standard mainsail too. Use the standard first as the XD sail is fairly difficult to get right and does overpower easily until you can trapeze and helm.

Try looking at all the various forums for the boats to see what people think of them. There is a huge amount of prejudice about choice of boat with lots of people thinking my boat/design is the best. So take all advice with a bit of salt and make your own decision.

dwh99, I'd be interested to hear in what respect you think the Vago is better than a Laser 3000, except that being plastic you can maybe abuse it more (tho an L3k is pretty bomb-proof)? I'm leaving aside the fact that even secondhand it will cost about £3000 more than a secondhand Laser 3k.

For my money the L3k is faster (whatever the PY says (and I've raced a Vago XL a couple of times), lighter, more stable, and with off-the boom sheeting and a gnav now permitted is at least as roomy. It also feels more like a pukka racer.

The only advantage I can see for the Vago is that it's cheaper to make, but that's to Laser's benefit, not the owner's.

Medway, I think that the L3k is excellent but I don't really see it as a single hander. The low boom shows its L2 parentage and for that reason, and regardless of gnav/otb sheeting, it's not the easiest to trapese-helm from (tacking and gybing being that much more difficult - yes, I know a Contender has a low boom).

The Vago has the advantage that you can trapeze-helm it without too much difficulty and fly the kite from the trapeze as well. I think the L3k is as fast as the Vago and certainly more stable. However, if you take the jibs off both the Vago is better balanced.

I still maintain that the Vago is a better boat if you mainly sail solo. If Laser had made the Vago from GRP they would have had quite a boat. (The Bahia is fine as a rotomoulded Stratos - there's not the same racing emphasis.)

Merlinboy

Only if they don't suggest one of the plastic boats first. Almost everyone on here seems to be against them, but there are a very large number of them sailing. They do fulfill a need. They are easy to rig and sail, need very little maintenance and are usually designed to be comfortable to potter about in with some excitement as the wind picks up. None of them are designed as out and out race boats, but why should they be, there are lots of other designs that do that.

I wouldn't take any of the high performance skiffs out for a potter around in. They are all far to full on for that, they are also mostly quite uncomfortable in lightish winds, but any of the plastic boats would be fine for that. I know there are non plastic boats that are also fine for pottering etc. but they tend to be more complicated than the new designs.

Medway Maniac

I don't think I said the vago was better than the 3000 just that the 3000 was smaller.

I haven't sailed the v3000 version of the laser 3000 so can't comment on that, but  it sounds like there is more room than before.

I am not sure being faster is necessarily a good thing in a returners boat. Lighter yes, more stable is debatable. I have had no problem sailing a vago standing up most of the time, but did have in the 3000, maybe thats just me.

Also the 3000 can't be raced single handed according to the rules, but the vago can, so does that count as better or just different?

So you have to decide what you want out of a boat there are lots of choices out there.

If you want the real answer as to why I think the vago would be a better choice for me and only me, is that I and my helm/crew are too heavy for it. It was great fun in a force 5 and above, but not in anything less. There isn't a thwart to sit on in lighter winds so you have lie in some very strange positions to get the trim and balance correct. If you are light and small enough then fine go for it.

Interesting that you guys respectively find the Vago easier to trapeze singlehanded and more stable, reactions quite contrary to my own. I guess it comes down to how one as an individual sails.

So it comes down to the usual advice: try them all before you buy. Laser & RS both offer demos, while 3000's can be demo'ed by clicking the link on the 3000 home page (see link below). If singlehanding is your thing, it would be a good idea to say so when ordering a demo - we can try to arrange that you get a go in a boat that's set up for it.

The good thing about lowish booms is you get more power for less heeling moment - which is what you want on a single hander.  Just look at a Contender, now that IS a low boom! 

This is one reason the Vago doesn't work s/h as well as it might.  Also that high freeboard does keep the helm dry and does make the rotomould hull tolerably stiff, but it also makes for quite a climb out onto the wire, whereas on the 3000 you just walk out steadily backwards using the ridges in the cockpit.

As for the class legality of singlehanding a 3000; you already can at most 3000 events and for the rest... I'm working on it.

Hi chaps, not posted for a while been a little busy on the work front, however it is nice to see a topic on the Vago with more balanced views for a change.

There is nothing to fear with the construction of the Vago, mine is three years old and been sailed often and hard. The boat is designed with a low rig tension and the side stays attach to solid steel bars that spread the load, so stays pulling out is very unlikely.

You also need to be completely honest about your own sailing capability, both the RS400 and RS500 are definately not begginers boats even when sailed doublehanded.  In fact all of the boats mentioned have the ability to 'bite' the unsuspecting.

My advice would be to get to your local club and talk to the members, maybe get out with someone and let them see where you are in terms of competence, then be better guided.

If I am speaking out of turn and you are confident with your dinghy competence, my apologies, but better to be safe than ill advised.