Where do you think I stand on this one?

Laser fleet racing, in force 2-3, approaching leeward mark on run;

Group of six or seven boats clear ahead of me, about to round mark....Obvious to me that as the inside boat gybes to round, that all the other boats will also gybe and fall to leeward and outside...... leaving an inviting gap inside for me to gybe clean through on...... Only that another boat (X) outside of me, that I DO have an overlap on, gybes onto me and goes for the gap as well.....Whilst one of us IMHO could have got through cleanly, both can't! I touch mark, and bump gunwhales, with  boat X, who in turn bumps gunwhales with the other earlier group of boats now to leeward.

Who do you think is in the wrong?

It could be argued that if the other boat hadn't been there, you wouldn't have broken a rule. He broke a rule, not giving you room, and forced you to break a rule, contact with the mark. He also broke a rule, hitting the boat outside of him which it doesnt sound like he was entitled to room from.

Because he forced you to break a rule, you then weren't in the wrong.

Even if you are giong for a dodgy gap, you still have to give room to the boats overlapped inside you.

So that outside boat isnt allowed to shut you out, as you have rights for water over him.  But you would both be on very thin ground - to win a protest you would need evidence that you would have fitted through had the other boat non infringed you.

Well thank you all,

This is how I saw it;

Jim C is entirely right to point out case 63.

Boat X DIDN'T have an inside overlap on the group of boats ahead (Mike Ellis).

I didn't call for water from boat X, as I was clearly inside overlapped AND both of us on starboard gybe, him being windward boat as well. Boat X had every opportunity to sail round the outside of the group in front and should have been prepared to give me room for the same option as well. I don't think you have to anticipate another boat breaking a rule(s). Had I called for water this could have easily been misinterpreted by the group in front as calling them, which I wasn't entitled to do! (lukepiewalker).

In the event, outside (overlapped) windward boat X, gybed onto port in front of me. He must have broken a rule there! I gybed onto port to miss him, which took me into the gap at the mark, only being 1 3/4 boats wide, there was an inevitable bump of gunwhales. I must say at this point, if the wind conditions had been much stronger I would have been forced to duck above the mark to avoid serious collision between boats.

I chose to strike the mark (passing it the correct side), in order to give all the boats to leeward as much room as possible to avoid contact. Boat X was sandwiched between me and the right of way boats to leeward.

I was of the same opinion as Mike Ellis, that without Boat X, I would have made the gap cleanly, and it was only by the actions of boat X that I was 'compelled' to break a rule(s)

In the heat of it all, one of the leeward, right of way boats (rightly feeling aggrieved) focussed on me as the transgressor, and called 'protest'. Boat X meanwhile sailed off scot free!

Bearing in mind case 63, and as elmo points out, the onus would have been on me to prove I would have passed gap cleanly (a very difficult thing to prove), I begrudgingly took a 2 turn penalty to exonerate myself.

I never did identify boat X.

NOW should the leeward, right of way boat have protested boat X in the first instance rather than me, since it was he that made contact, rather than me?

Aha, sorry, new to this. I should have attributed one quote to FreshScum. Well it is 3.15 am in the morning, and before anybody says anything, I'm not a saddo on forum this time in the morning. I'm working nights... it's a bit slow at the moment.

i didnt say that!!! dont drag me into this.

Jim, is this really you? All your other posts are fairly reasonable, but this last bit seems to say that if you can't identify the boat that fouled, to avoid you being chucked, you'd make up a protest against the closest boat you could. Which is a pretty sh*tty thing to do.

If there aren't on-the-water umpires, sailing is supposed to be a self-policing sport with the room as a last resort.

I think I have re-understood what Jim meant. Apologies!

If there is an infringement, you call them on it. Hopefully they do their turns, if not you chat to them afterwards and hopefully they retire. If not, you take them to the room. So it is the last part of the process? Do it a couple of times and people know you're serious.

Sorry, genuine mistake at 3 in the morning!

I followed it up with another posting straight away (not very well, apparently) to try and correct my mistake. I'll have to work out how you can isolate small excerpts in a quote, then that wouldn't have happened. Any tips?

Back to the debate, seems I have stirred up something here.

Just for the record, there was no doubt whatsoever that I had an overlap on X.

If I had a hint that X was about to attempt something so outragous, I would have prewarned him. Of course my contemplation to sail into the gap, prior to boat X transgression, did not account for boat X actually being there as well.

Since I was forced to gybe into the gap by X, then surely I was compelled to break a rule, irrespective of what I was 'thinking' immediately before X  gybed in front of me, leaving me no other option. Maybe if I hadn't started off by stating I was looking to take the gap.......

How I wished I could have identified boat X!

As you can appreciate the whole incident happened in a matter of seconds...

I was more intent on avoiding any significant contact between boats. As soon as I gybed to initially avoid X, I was then on windward side of my boat, with his sail shielded by mine. I was distracted by the protestations from the leeward group of boats preventing me from identifying X. Ten seconds later as boats had tacked off the other way, I'm left looking at 3 or 4 vela grey lasers, which are impossible to tell apart.

Having had time to think about my actions, it does raise the question whether I am at all culpable. Granted if I had gybed first into the gap before X, then I would have been in a very difficult situation of proving that I would have got through in the abscence of X. However, X gybed before me (breaking a rule) and left me the only option to gybe as well. I 'may' have been able to sail to windward of the mark and left X to get through without fouling leeward boats, or persist with the gap and 'squeeze' through touching mark and scuffing gunwhales. Given that there was minor contact, which, had I sacrificed myself going wrong side of mark may have been avoided, I decided to take a penalty. If it had been significantly windier, I probably wouldn't have contemplated getting though the gap, risking serious damage to all concerned.

In all the kefuffle, all of the protestations were directed at me, I don't think anybody realised the idendity of X at the time, he managed to slip away anonymously. Shame really, he could do that all over again, no lesson learnt.

At the end of the day, I could have gained 4-5 places at the mark if it all went well, instead I probably lost 2-3 more places doing turns. I guess it was a calculated risk which didn't pay. Just a bit miffed that it wasn't all down to me....

It wasn't a war, and nobody died, at least my concience is clear.

Lasers love them or hate them, you do get close fleet racing on a big scale.