29erXX
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3044
Printed Date: 19 Aug 25 at 4:13am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: 29erXX
Posted By: ifoxwell
Subject: 29erXX
Date Posted: 05 Jun 07 at 5:20pm
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Any one know what the recomended handicap is... I heard it was faster than an RS800 which doesnt sound right to me... as its shorter, heavyer and has less sail area! Ian |
Replies:
Posted By: m_liddell
Date Posted: 05 Jun 07 at 6:10pm
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29er was @ 920ish and the 800 is @ 830 (maybe 820 now?). No way will the slightly bigger rig and extra wire make almost 100pts difference. Fully rigged, is it definitely heavier? (I have not sailed the xx btw) |
Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 05 Jun 07 at 6:11pm
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compared to the cherub - which was faster than the 29erxx at the hyere 'trials' ( apparently - depending on who is PR ing) is sailing off 975 http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2968&PN=1&get=last#97081 - cherub gt60 thread
and is somehow slower than a standard 29er!! ------------- " rel="nofollow - http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk Andy P foiling Int Moth GBR3467 Freedom 21 Codling |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 05 Jun 07 at 8:01pm
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That is because the Cherub is a development class, and the handicap reflects not only all the cherubs that are still racing at clubs which make returns, so 1970's cherubs are still in the mix, but also there is a year or 2's catch up to play anyway. You also have to take into account performance right across the board - are Cherubs really faster in a drifter? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 05 Jun 07 at 9:03pm
You were / are never shy of pronouncing you 6 Cherub Nationals Wins and using that to PR yourself and company Andy... so I'd go easy on the PR machine. As the last poster said, and as you well know, a development class has a big variety of spec boats that influence the returns. The Cherub is also a small fleet, but increasing so the returns should eventually catch up with the new speed of the boats. If you PR'ed it more you'd get to build more 2005 rules Cherubs, make more money and speed up that process :-) ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 05 Jun 07 at 9:49pm
I haven't for ages, but thanks for mentioning it! But yes, Cherubs are still very slow in a drift, and there have been too few boats built recently ( which is my fault I suppose  ), which makes the PY returns slow to catch up with the real speed increase of the new boats.
What I meant about PR is that each class seemed to say that their class was the fastest, nicest, and best, with no objective comparative reporting. ------------- " rel="nofollow - http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk Andy P foiling Int Moth GBR3467 Freedom 21 Codling |
Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 05 Jun 07 at 10:04pm
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i think the cherub handicap is about spot on. ------------- |
Posted By: 29er397
Date Posted: 06 Jun 07 at 1:05pm
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975 spot on? not sure myself. closer to 900 would be better. Or perhaps a split handicap for 2005 rules/old rules boats. Most of the older boats have been converted in to 97 rules rigs by now, if not, 2005 rules. Going by the boats that were at last years nats? Having sailed a normal 29er against a 2005 rules cherb in various places in various conditions i reckon it should be around 910, comparing speed etc around the course. It is a bit slower than the 9er upwind due to water line length etc, but downwind the cherub makes up its losses and a bit more. Isn't Phil trying to collate results from last years SSR GP to formulate a more reasonable handicap for the 05 rules boats? When i sailed the XX (prototype i believe, but essentially the same boat) it seemed very quick upwind and down. But i really doubt it was faster than the RS800. Just from my own opinion i reckon 850 is a realistic figure. Although, i havn't seen any provisional PY's anywhere. ------------- http://www.kielderwatersc.org - Kielder Water Sailing Club |
Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 06 Jun 07 at 1:23pm
Yup, I am trying to get some numbers down so that these sorts of arguments can be answered with figures rather than just guesses. The more results I have the better so if you know anyone who might have race results including timings for races that include Cherub's then please let me know. What I have so far shows closer to 900 than 975 for 05 boats but with massive variation between boats and between races. ------------- If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right |
Posted By: k_kirk
Date Posted: 20 Aug 07 at 2:29pm
I have seen it recorded with a PY of 850 in a number of recent events. Ie http://rutlandsc.co.uk/results/2007/040207_TigerTrophy.htm . Anyone know if this is now the official number for the 29erXX? On this note, would the PY change if a boat meant for two is being solo'ed? In other words is PY based on the theoretical speed of a particular boat at its optimum crew weight & number or is it speed + a certain element of handicap recognizing the challenge? Thanks for educating me on this point. Cheers. ------------- http://gaijinonfoils.blogspot.com/ - Gaijin on Foils |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 20 Aug 07 at 2:42pm
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PY is based on returns madfe by clubs. If you get a boat that wins everything, it's PY will get faster, if you get a boat coming last in everything it's PY will get slower. PY measures the performance of the boat and includes the performance of those sailing the boat. So you can also get a PY dropping for a boat if the skill level in the fleet is low. ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: k_kirk
Date Posted: 20 Aug 07 at 3:54pm
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Thanks for that clarification. I understand well now. How often are the numbers updated then? Once or twice a year?
------------- http://gaijinonfoils.blogspot.com/ - Gaijin on Foils |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 20 Aug 07 at 4:34pm
It *might* happen, but the clubs are supposed to allow for that. New numbers are issued every spring. If a boat isn't being sailed in its standard config, eg singlehanded, then yes, a different PY number should be allocated. With the Mirror,and maybe some other classes, this happens often enough for there to be an official PY number for the alternate config. |
Posted By: k_kirk
Date Posted: 20 Aug 07 at 5:51pm
Thanks for that information. So that means all 2007 and Q1/08 results will define the way PY will shift (if at all) from Spring 08. Understood. standard vs solo PY. I was looking at the RYA csv file earlier tonight and saw this for the Laser Pico for instance. There is a separate listing but it specifies main only in solo config so PY is almost the same. Anyways, 29erXX is not even there in standard config let alone solo. For what its worth, if 29erXX PY is 850 sailed in standard config with 140kg between crew & helm, what would you reckon the PY would be sailed solo with 90kg lard on the wire? Thanks for all the information. ------------- http://gaijinonfoils.blogspot.com/ - Gaijin on Foils |
Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 20 Aug 07 at 6:11pm
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My answer to k_kirk would probably be, "much higher number", since its a boat designed for 2. Being a hairy boat will capsise a lot in strong winds and will not sail at all well in light winds since the hull was designed for planning. This might be an appropriate time to start a thread on the relative performance factors of length, weight, sail area and gennaker - so that's what I'll do. |