Hi,

I'm in the market for a new toy and drooling whilst looking at pics and vids of skiffs speeding along.  I am wondering how difficult a skiff such as a RS 700 or MPS is to sail,  I'm happy to put effort in but don't want to spend ££££ and find out a napkin would've been a better solution for the drooling.

I love sailing, I've done a fair bit of ocean sailing and keelboat racing, I'm vaguely fit, 37 yrs old  and weigh 72kgs.  I've raced as crew on a Dart cat a few times (no problems at all).  My main aim is get out on the water, sail  and relish the rush.

Is it feasible to head directly into skiffs or should I start elsewhere in the dinghy world?

Appreciate your insights, thank you.

Borrow a boat and have a go and see how you get on before you buy ...

Something like a Shadow seemed a good option ... until I saw the price!  My budget unfortunately does not stretch that far.  Damn.

I'm convinced that I'll need to get small boat handling skills before trying a skiff (mine or anyone elses).

Many thanks to all for the advice provided.

its taken me 7 months to get bored of mine

Sorting out small boat handling skills is possible a less risky option - it's a sensible development route etc. but it doesn't teach you a lot about skiffs except that it's really worth taking the gybes slowly at first.

Skiff sailing is a lot about having good initial fitness (remember that bit) and a strong sense of upright, even when everything's mobile. Think waterborne skateboard.

If you don't mind the steep learning curve you could become competent in a skiff faster, by having a go (repeatedly) and reading up about it. Watching skiff crews close up is also good if you get your eye trained on what's going on. You will capsize, but you'll get there faster.

29er crew - four outings only! Mother of two 29er crews. Longtime hiking crew and bit part helm.

Tessa

Back in the days when I was actively instructing on dinghies (5 years ago) a significant portion of pupils came from the keelboat fraternity. Often they'd have got their Day Skipper (all manouevres under power) but failed Coastal Skipper due to lack of "sailing" skill.

To some extent I agree with Tessa above that Skiffs are so different to other dinghies that there is little to be gained from taking the step-by-step approach.

However, the basics still count and proper boat trim is not something you will have picked up from keelboats. Boat trim is everything in skiffs so you need to get it right.

If you are just a speed junkie with no thought toward racing have you considered windsurfing or kitesurfing? Loadsa speed, fairly easy (compared to a skiff) to reach acceptable proficiency.

And dump 2m of mainsheet once the battens have cracked onto the new tack. Otherwise spend your life in irons.

Ah but there motivation was not to sail the boat they enjoyed. Well we don't know that exactly. Their prime motivation waqs to win a little bit of gold from the 5 ring circus.

I bet you they would race Skipper 14s if they were an Olympic Class.

Originally posted by Chris 249 Originally posted by mike ellis Originally posted by turnturtle once you're bored of it (1 season or 2) its taken me 7 months to get bored of mine Ben Ainslie and Robert Scheidt didn't get bored with the Laser. You guys must be pretty good to get so much better than they are within such a short time that there's no challenge left!

i never said i was good, i just said the boat was boring. and it is boring when on every lap there is either a unicorn cat or a 600 sailing over you going faster and the helm doesnt have the look of pain on their face from hiking. but on a windy reach its still a grin.

sounds like me, can't work out what im doing wrong unless i have one exact breeze i cant match anyone else for pointing or speed especially upwind. it pisses me off. therefor im going to get a different boat that like TT says, i will enjoy sailing in for the sailing not for the constant beating in anything other than 15-16 knots.

Agrre with you Tack... but up to a point.  As far as fleet racing is concerned, it's hard to beat a Laser, butthe effort to performance ratio isn't that great when you just want to go for a sail.

Also, not everyone has the time to spend as long as they'd like training or in the gym, in which case a different class of boat that fits in with your lifestyle may be a better idea in the long run....

tack'ho, what winds me up is that i know i can beat the other guys in one set of conditions but when i have asked them about what i have been doing wrong at other times they don't know what i've done wrong either.

edit: any way this isn't a thread about moaning about lasers its about skiffs. crewed skiffs are much easier than single handers so perhaps you should consider talking to anyone with a fast boat at your club.

BeachBoy,

Life is too short. Just get the high performance boat you drool over and get on with it. It you choose a double-hander thats reosanbly docile... (ie RS500, 29er etc) then you can beg, borrow or steal someone's time to coach you on the water. I bought a 29erXX after years of dry life on the ground and managed to get back into it in about 10 sessions with an ex-Olympian. A lot of swimming & self mutilation was part of the process but the end result is definitely worth it all. A coach who can give you one-on-one attention is key to success!

PS. Make sure to buy the best insurance you can buy... Both for your boat and yourself.

Cheers

They dont complain because it would be like biting the hand that feeds you, they dont pay for their boats do they, i loved my laser but unless you can practice 7 days a week you aint gonna do anything in the fleet, and they are boring compaired to skiffs NO ONE CAN ARGUE THAT FACT!

I used to campaign a Laser and loved the close racing.  There was a time at Bough Beech when we had ½ dozen keen guys and a fleet of 12 and we would be swapping places all round the course and winning by only metres after 90 minutes.  However after a race we'd all head back to shore for pies and pints, and were really knackered.

Now I sail a 4000, I hardly ever see much of the competition and often don't know who won until I get my email the next day (that's handicap racing).  However after a race I often go for blast - just for the thrill of it.

Very different.

I think you should take an intermediate step or 2.  There's a lot to learn and it doesn't come by reading books.  They are difficult boats, the good guys make it look easy but it isn't.  In fact they are so difficult there are many many sailors who would never manage one.  You could so easily wreck the boat and severely damage your confidence.  And one final tip if you borrow a boat make sure you've got at least a spare tiller extension - you'll proably need it.

Er, yeah actually I can argue that fact.  What makes a boat boring or not is the quality of the racing, not the outright speed.  YOU cannot argue that the laser provides some of the best quality racing there is.

If all you care about it speed why don't you get a jetski?

And that's the fault of the boat how?  Why not ask someone who knows

Firstly, not everyone wants just to race.  Also, as mentioned earlier, not everyone has the time to train hard enough to get the best out of their Laser.

Nobody will disagree that to get good quality class racing at virtually any club in the country, the Laser will deliver. BUT... to get the best out of it involves a hell of a lot of hard work, and that just isn't for everyone.  I LOVE racing a Laser, but I can't be @rsed to travel to the lake for a blast in one, where as a skiff type boat (and others) do give a better performance-effort ratio.  Not saying you're wrong for loving your Laser, just pointing out that it isn't for everyone.

[QUOTE=Chris 249]

They dont complain because it would be like biting the hand that feeds
you, they dont pay for their boats do they, i loved my laser but unless you
can practice 7 days a week you aint gonna do anything in the fleet, and
they are boring compaired to skiffs NO ONE CAN ARGUE THAT FACT!

I dont really understand the point about people on this forum sl*gging of the laser as none of them have really, we all know it is a great brand for our beloved sport, but a few sailors have said that it bored them, THIS IS their opinion so i dont think you should crit it!  if you think a morrison 12 14 is slow and stable i now am starting to doubt your knowlege chris!

Wouldn't that actually be the Sunfish? Over half a million built.

Boring!

I never said they sailed them only for cash i said they wouldnt sl*g the boat of because they probably dont pay for their boats! Secondly i have only voiced my own personal opinion in this thread if you read my pevious posts i think you will notice that i complemented the laser saying i enjoyed sailing one, but didnt have the time, money or ability to progress any further in the fleet therefore my natural progression in a laser had come to a close, thus meaning i find them bloody boring because i'm not good enough to compete, NOW THAT IS A FACT!

I can see we're all a bit touchy about boats we like and don't like !

Here here

go for it.  sailing a fast boat has a lot of things that make it easier - a slow bicycle race is difficult.  however the crashes tend to be more frequent and bigger in a skiff.  if you have the enthusiasm and the time then you can go straight for a skiff or a skiff style boat, particularly if you already understand the rudiments of what you are trying to do.  hope it works out for you.

well back the the original topic

get a vortex for a few seasons, thats what im doing ive just started in it im loving it it is very different to what ive sailed before (fireball 420, laser) it is very forgiving so you wont swim alot unlike other boats, its a great way to learn to helm from the wire.

as some of the vortex guys are doing are now moving into more "skiff" like boats for a different challange.

Lighter people can get out on the wire sooner and then get their weight forward. Sinking the stern is fairly easy on a Vortex and with all the shrouds and lowers and non-adjustable tiller, it's awkward for taller and heavier people to get suitably far forward while inboard.

The mainsail is also very easy to depower and the top of the mast is tapered so it's quite whippy anyway. You can tighten the lowers to get max power but it's still a lighter person's boat. Don't know about 12 stone being the max. Hector's nearer 10 stone.

I WISH!! Maybe 20 years ago.

Actually Hector  fluctuates between 11.2 to 11.5st and Phil Whitehead (the acknowledged fastest in the fleet) is 12.5st. Jonathan Lister won the last open and he's 11.5st. Angus was within 2 points of winning and he's nearer 15st!

That said, I reckon that you can sail a Vortex competetively with as little as 10st and up to 13st. Of course in a blow the 14st+ guys are fast but inevitably they struggle a little in the lighter airs. Equally someone in the mid range will be most competative over the widest wind range  - ooooh that would be someone my weight then!

I sailed Lasers for 15years and never got bored. I did get fit, learnt masses about tactics, boat speed, boat handling and big fleets, made lifelong freinds and generally had a great time. I did do other things in amongst and eventually took on another challenge that demanded all my spare sailing time. Even now I occasionally think about doing another Laser event - World masters In Australia in February sounds good!

Turnturtles comment together with Simsy's sum it up perfectly for me.

EDIT Worth mentioning that both Sten and Ian Trotter were on the same Northern Laser circuit as me -  seems it was a pretty good foundation for their Skiff sailing 'careers'.

crew a flying fifteen for a season or two, and take every opportunity to trial other classes as you can.  That will probably give you a decent basic level of skill to determine just how much adrenaline you want to expend.

Avoiding the embarrassment of getting rescued week in, week out is worth a fair premium...!

I was in exactly the same position as you a few months ago. I am 36 and decided to buy a 700 (birthday present to myself) after quite a few years of doing not much dinghy sailing.

I flatter myself that I used to be reasonably good and was pretty confident with my old Contender a few years back (ie more than 10 years). So I thought that it wouldnt be too hard to get going in the 700 - mistake.

Went out the first time in around 5 - 7 knots and found it reasonably OK, although it was obvious that it was a lot less stable than the Contender. Next time out, the wind got up from around 5 knots to a good 12 - 15. Upwind it was fine, but then I tried to go downhill a bit and it all went wrong. Started swimming a lot and had problems getting home (although no difficulty getting her back upright). Although quite fit, I got tired quite quickly.

I know it is early days yet, but it put me off a little to the extent that I am questioning whether it was the right decision to buy the 7. I think I might have been better off getting something slightly easier to handle for a while, at least while I found my feet again in dinghies.

The choice for me at the time was the Assy Vortex, the 600, a Vareo and various others (including a decent laser). Other sailing friends encouraged me to go straight for the 7 (based on their own experience of what they, and others, had sailed at various clubs). With hindsight, I think a Contender or the Vortex might have been the better bet for at least a couple of seasons.

Am now going to get some training with people who know how to sail the 7 better than I and will practice a bit in the club's Lasers to get my confidence back up.

In short, the 7 is great fun and super quick. However, it is a real handful and if you are not sure you can move up to it from what you have been sailing to date then consider an intermediate step for a season or two first. Put it this way, it is a lot harder to sail than I remember the Contender being (athough this could be because I have very fond memories of the Contender). If I was buying again, I would definitely go for something slightly easier first and then the 700 in a few years time.

It depends how hard you rub it....

(I apologise in advance to anyone who considers this inappropriate)

If I may ask, why was a Vareo discounted ?

Good post Jim. The 'I'm not sure I can get this thing home' feeling while swimming around a capsized boat in the middle of the sea *again* is not nice esp in a singlehander.

The other thing to consider is what kind of environment you will be learning to sail it. If you have good safety cover with no racing going on to go out, fine. This is usually not the case; most clubs only have safety cover while racing and you really don't want to be causing a scene in the middle of a race. This leaves taking the boat out with no safety which, if you cannot handle it, is a accident waiting to happen.

The best way to learn is to have mate in a rib near you to offer advice and help you. Unfortunately this isn't usually practical.

The decision not to go for the Vareo was mostly due to my ego (thinking I could master the 700 quite quickly) and peer pressure (people saying that I would get bored of it quite quickly). Same was true of the Vortex. 

I accepted that I would do a lot of swimming to start with and that I needed to be quite fit to sail it. I didnt realise quite how much swimming.

The "rescue boat reputation" is another thing that has put me off sailing the 700. I dont want to be "the one who occupies the attention of one RIB for every race where it blows over Force 3". This factor has contributed to the knock my confidence has taken.  

For what it's worth, I am considering getting rid of the 700 and replacing it with something simpler for a while. If I thought I could do it without losing too much money I think I would (although I'm also keen not to quit before I've really given it a proper go).

Quite a few saying go for a Vortex. If you (or anyone else)  wants to try one, either PM me or contact the class association via the 'contact us' link at http://www.sailvortex.org - http://www.sailvortex.org

Alternatively come along to the Northern Championships at  http://www.yorkshiredales.sc - Yorkshire Dales SC  this weekend and I'm sure we can arrange for you to have a trial sail. 

just imagine pointing upwards instead

James a few pointers from your pics

you need to pull the main in more to balance the kite, roughly to the edge of the hull.

also you need to keep the boat flat at all times,it capsizes if your not, which I guess you already know.

 in that breeze you need to be out on the rack. to get the right angle down wind just step out and head up (firm and smooth) untill you feel the boat start to trip then allow the kite to pull the bow round untill your flat. if you feel the boat slow or heel over windward headup again.

looks like your doing well, I did alot of swimming when I was learning all part of the fun.

TT,

In addition to Sten's comments set your trapeze lower so you can just about hook on when your sitting on the wing.

If you have to stand up on the hull to hook on your not applying much leverage to the rig at that point.

You can actually sail pretty fast just sitting on the wing ... then just clip on and extend to trapezing ...

We all had a phase of swimming to start with ... if you stick at it you will soon recieve the benefits.

Gotta say mate you do look a little like Bambi taking her first steps in the second shot

Oh TT, just another little pointer........ Nice yellow BB cap would be good mate.  It's all very brown and grey in the photos.  Need to liven the colour up.

PS, as Dave sails a raft, what would he know about balance

Superb.  You'll just blend into the general ambiance.  Good "volume" and area as well, for those involontary stomach evacuation moments so prevalent when sailing a Musto Skiff (he says desperately trying to stay on topic). Lucky old Durham.

Looks like no rudder blade either. Now that is impressive  Rudderless sailing with kite and on the trapeze. I guess that was a training session.

Originally posted by Contender443 Looks like no rudder blade either. Now that is impressive  Rudderless sailing with kite and on the trapeze. I guess that was a training session.

Nah, we sail our raft like that all the time (mainly due to lobster pots and kick-up rudders). Of course, we don't have balance to worry about so it stops us getting bored! Eh Piere?

Originally posted by English Dave Originally posted by Contender443 Looks like no rudder blade either. Now that is impressive  Rudderless sailing with kite and on the trapeze. I guess that was a training session. Nah, we sail our raft like that all the time (mainly due to lobster pots and kick-up rudders). Of course, we don't have balance to worry about so it stops us getting bored! Eh Piere?

Absolutely Dave.  Believe me, if I lived at the seaside, I'd have a raft as well.  Just sit on your backside and steer a bit.  Marvellous.  Very like helming an Osprey,,,,bit different for the crew I admit, but hey, there you go.

Not at all, mon brave. Crewing c'est la meme chose le monde over. Chaque fois que le crew screws up, il sent un sharp twinge a la derierre de sa tete. Courtesy de Moi!

who needs a crew,or was it the helm? it gets so confusing who to blame on your own. definitly not my fault