OK - Next challenge for the "pick a boat competition"

Please name the most appropriate skiff for sailing in the following configurations...

1) Dad (75kg) + Son aged 7 (25Kg)

2) Dad only

As far as I can see the options are 29er with Dad on the wire or play silly buggers with a 59er and fit a single wire to it.

Any one got any better ideas?

The wind here is normally 0 - 15 knots with occassional days during the NE monsoon when it hits 20 knots steady.  Ony get stronger winds when rain cells come through and dump 6 inches of rain upwind of you in about 1/2 hour - then you get up to 35 knots!

BTW - I'm in Singapore so going to a local club to try the boats is a mite tricky...

Cheers.

Does it HAVE to be a skifF ?

What about a small cat like a Dart 15 ? (Ideal for the combo you are suggesting BTW), but not sure where you can source them locally

SCooby Simon

How useful mate.  Still, I can't knock your enthusiasm

I was going to suggest a cherub (much easier to right than a 29er), but I am hopelessly biased .

If you are in Singapore you might be able to get a 2nd hand aussie rules one...

People sometimes get blinkered.  Sounds like a quick fun boat is required.  Just wondering if a small skiff is ideal for a 7 year old.....

Continuing on the cat front - Taipan 4.9?  This can be sailed singlehanded with the main only or doublehanded with jib - and either way with a spinnaker as well.  And there is already a fleet of 20 plus boats in Singapore...

http://www.prosail-asia.com/Boats/Taipan.html - http://www.prosail-asia.com/Boats/Taipan.html

Very good point.  Forget the Tiapan's are out there.

Given the age of the little one, you might even sail without the jib (but with the Kid) and take the lower rating ?

Not again!! The cat sailors have taken over not listening to the ooriginal question of which SKIFF!!! Dont get me wrong thoughm i sell myself into slavery for a decent cat!!!

I'm a fan of the Laser4000.  Its not expensive, there are plenty of great open events, they're a friendly bunch and the hull is strong (so and old one is as fast as a new one).  They are not so extreme that you can't go out in a blow - in fact they love it.  They have a weight equalisation system so that light or heavy crews can race on equal terms.

What are its disadvantages?  Its heavy and difficult to sail up to its handicap unless you've got big courses.  The sails are expensive.  Its very tippy and turns turtle very fast. 

Its a big fast boat and requires a certain amount of strength and weight but rewards it with fantastic upwind speed in wind and waves.  Its no slouch downwind too - definitely leaves you with a big broad grin at the end of the day.

can i say people have this thing that cats are expensive

look at the price of used hurricane 5.9's they are as cheap if not cheaper than alot of good dinghys!!!

I am sure used Hurricanes are cheap in the UK. 

In Singapore a used Taipan still costs a fortune.  And the definition of a fortune is at least 50% more than my budget!

Wot's all this tosh about getting used to speed and not capsizing? when I was 7 I sailed a Topper and thought it was pretty boring unless it was F6+ I was much happier in me Dads Laser and I spent most of my time in the Topper trying to capsize in interesting ways!

Also IMHO you learn much more/quicker in a dinghy than a cat. Everything always seems so remote in a cat, sure the speed is fun but even Jetskiiers get bored - eventually.

Yawn.

Matt it is different. 

Yes Cats are easy to sail badly. 

There are a different set of skills.  As cats are more stable in heel, balancing the boat becomes easier (but still critical) and so other areas can have more focus - sail (and fore aft) trim for example, it is possible for the crew to have the mainsail (a la 49er and other skiffs) but the helm will be playing with mast rotation/downhaul and traveller as they are spending less time trying to stay on the boat and so can do other things.

Also going so fast needs more time with your head out of the boat to check whats around you.  I could go on and on and on...  But I wont.

Matt, my reason for suggesting a cat is that Blobby's son is only seven and putting the lad in a skiff at that age with no experience is a bit to much of a jump (IMHO) otherwise I would agree with you entirely!!  

Cats make people lazy in terms of balance (having said that cat sailors in skiffs is possibly the funniest thing you will ever see so maybe they have their uses). 

OK. Maybe not a skiff.

But what I said still hold true about kids and fear (ie they have none) whenever I've been involved in any kind of training it's always the windiest days the kids love and when it's quieter you can't get them to keep the boats upright!

It's always the high performance end of sports that captures the imagination, like wanting a Ducati and starting out with 50cc hairdryer, or wanting a Porsche but driving a Nova.

You're spot on, some of the best racing is in the slowest boats - look at the size of Enterprise fleets. I don't think many people sail them 'for the buzz'.

Being 7 doesn't necessarily mean no experience...my boy and I have been sailing together for a couple of years and he is now confident (and competent) enough to helm a 420 in a force 2 - 3.  Haven't done any capsize practice yet, but we probably should to see how he copes - if he enjoys it then a skiff type boat is probably OK, but if not we'll stick with a more stable beast. 

My main aim in going down the skiff line is to get a boat that I can sail from the wire - (my back is far from perfect and sailing a Contender for a couple of years ruined my desire to return to a hiking boat for life...) - and the newer skiff type designs are much easier to transition to and from the and move around in than a 420 (which to be honest I find an ergonomic nightmare!)

Are you sure about the transition thing? I find lighter wind stuff (when you come in and out on the wire a lot) quite tiring and gives me backache because the Contender has a raised cockpit and you almost lie rather than sit in it. That's one reason Hornets have moved away from crewdecks towards full depth cockpits. It's different for boats you don't spend much time on the deck (like some skiffs I guess) but I would have thought a 420 was easier (if more cramped!). What I'm saying is the rule isn't true for all Skiffs.

My solution would be to buy a Contender each

The problem with a buzz is that the 5 and a bit stone of John's son is not really enough on the wire, the crew needs at the very least 8-9 (to put it in perspective 405 crews are at their best when they are about 8 stone) .  Once they have got the hang of the topaz and John's son grows up they can always swap round and get something a bit bigger (buzz, 4000?) or stay that way round and get something like a 29er (John will have to sit forward a bit but with no kicker to get in the way of the crew that should not be a problem).  It kind of depends how the son grows up and if he wants to go down the 'youth' route. 

Sounds like optimist size at 35kg. Otherwise i'd go for an rs200.

200's are definatly not skiffs. sailed one and it handled nicley tho

the 200 is nice to ssail but it has not got that wow factor that most the skiffs have!

All good comments - I am off to SkiffAsia in Phuket over easter to have a play in their 29ers, 59ers and C11 Bytes...YIPPEEEEEEEEEE!!! (It does help that they are only just up the road from Singapore and the flights are 3 of your english pounds each from here....)

I can see my future if we end up back in blighty could well involve an RS200 for me and the missus and something a bit more pokey for me the boy (if he isn't off on his own by then...)

http://www.skiffasia.com - www.skiffasia.com and click on the Tsunami link...

Basically the waves didn't break on the shore in their area so although the water came up 2 - 3 m, and the boats bumped into trees and stuff there was no real damage.

Yeah,

I agree Brian they are Sweet boats......................hopefully my next boat half and half with my mate

dont you think that the development classes are for preety young people or you have loads of time to build the boat and stay competetive. 

And of any other class - don't tell me you can buy a championship winning scorpion for less than 3 or 4 grand?

Can I just say, that if you are young you really should try a couple of seasons in a non-boatspeed type of boat or you'll never learn about tactics, strategy and rules.  The trouble with boatspeed boats is that you can go very fast in the wrong direction and you'll never win a race like that, except by luck.  And you can't learn all those skills whilst you are sailing a boat which loses out when you tack.

Sorry it sounds boring but a Laser, Enterprise, Lark, Scorpion, RS200 or Wayfarer will develop your skills much faster.  I hate to say it but a Firefly might be even better!  You do need a slowish boat with others in your club to compete against or you'll end up with all those others I hear at my club saying "my boat doesn't point" and compleltely ignorant of the fact that they are probably sailing in a different wind.

Sorry - how does you spending 4 grand being right at the top of the range I quoted make me wrong?  I said you could not do it for less than that and you have spectacularly proved my point!  Aqua Marina (2nd in the nationals last year) is up for sale at 4995 and could probably be bought for 4,500.  Where is the big difference?

If you want to learn tactics, strategy and rules you need a fleet to race in irrespective of boat speed.  Most people I know who claim their boats don't point are the ones who have never had another boat of the same class to sail against, not necessarily those who have leapt into a boatspeed type boat.

There is no point sailing a 420 to learn tactics at a club full of 29ers (Or as in my case F16 cats).

I seem to be being argumentative today.  Sorry.

Not bad - the only time I did the Scorpion nationals it was with a guy I had never sailed with before.  He had a new boat with all the tweaky bits you can imagine and had Ian Cadwallader tune it up for him a couple of months earlier.

We then spent the entire week in the last few places while he tried to get the setting back to where Mr. Cadwallader said they should be...

But my sister then bought a Scorp and we won the vintage boats prize at the Rye Harbour open second time out - lovely bottle of port - and then I bought a Contender (must have been drunk or something)

Hey!

Actually I missed out on fleet sailing when I was younger going straight from a Topper to a (very old) Hornet then onto a Contender both of which I sailed in handicap racing until recently when the Weston Contender fleet was the biggest I've (club) sailed in at 8.

I do feel I've missed out and that my grasp of tactics is tenuous. Now I'm too big to sail much else and certainly far away from the nearest suitable single-handed fleet.

Don't get me wrong I loved the Contender - one of the best boats I've had even it it was probably one of the worst Contenders in existance (357 - avoid it at all costs!).

Was it a Smith composite by any chance? I owned 353 at one time and that was a bit of a shocker as well.

I owned 443 once - it still is a bit of a shocker!!!!!!! Only kidding BWD!

Yeah. Only joking BWD. I'm some distance away so any help will have to be via email or PM but you'd be welcome to it anyway.

You should write a 'boat-on-boat' test.

As the Phantom and Contender are the only boats worth having if you're over 14 stone, it would be really useful for those like me who often wonder what the other is like (if you pardon the expression).

I think the mighty Finn should be on that list. When racing the Finn against Contenders up to a force 2 I could beat them easily, force 3 it was even and as the wind increased the Contenders would get the upper hand.  I was quite light for a Finn though.

Don't know about the Phantoms since I was looking forwards most of the time

Rondar

Me - started in Oppies, then progressed through Laser, Laser 2, back to a Laser for a few years (top 5 at NSSA, top 15 at Youth Nationals sort of level) then sailed a Scorpion briefly, COntender, Tasar and now faffing around in hired Lasers and 420s.

My son - now 2 years crewing for me on and off in the 420.

Erm, except that Blobby has already designed a very speedy looking cherub so he might actually fancy building one! He lives in Singapore so he wouldn't have to wait long for the epoxy to go off.

Hi guys,

Just back from 4 dyas at Skiff Asia in Phuket - what a blast!!!!  Played with their 59er's, 29er's c2Bytes and had a great laugh.  Got out in the 29er singlehanded and with Matthew - his description of the 29er afterwards was "funner than fun"...When we sailed together on the 29er I looked after the sails and matthew took the helm and did a great job - no capsizes or accidental gybes or anything. (OK the breeze was only 6 - 8 knots but it was a good start and about all we get in Singapore 9 months of the year anyway).  Haven't got the pics of the 2 of us here but here is the singlehanded version...

I am just getting some detailed drawings together of the Cherub to get prices for building it - it is a bit difficult to self-build here when living in a flat!  The way things look at the moment it will be a choice between getting my Cherub built of getting a 29er...

In Singapore it is a choice of a fleet of 1 or a fleet of 1!