Hi again,

Ive decided to stick to what im used to and stick to symmetric boats. Id like something faster than a 420 and a trap would be nice

So we weigh about 19 stone, have symmetric experience, sail on a smallish lake about 85 acres and would like something thats a good all rounder. We already sail in handicap so thats no problem. Also GRP or similar would be great.

Thanks in advance

 you will probably find that the furball is more stable than the 420 I loved all three that i had many moons ago they are a brill boat

Sounds like a good boat but i know very little about them so some basic info would be great. So, how do they perform, how are they in light and strong winds, how easily are they depowered, easy to capsize? and ho much for a newish one (within 10 year)

Your help would be greatly appreciated

You probably haven't considered a non spinnaker boat - there's one which is ideal for a lake of that size and great fun to sail. It's so lively and interesting for the crew that a spinnaker isn't necessary - take a look at http://www.national12.org - www.national12.org for masses of information. We have a growing fleet on our lake at Spinnaker (circa 60 acres) as more and more realise the enjoyment we get from our boats, its particularly good fun being able to out point anything else on the lake!

Cheers

     having sailed both boats i would actually say the fireball is easier to sail than a 420, as once you get the fireball to plain its a hell of alot more stable than the 420. the fireball is extremely easy to depower just like a 420.

     420's and fireballs are different to sail as the 420 is round n tipy unlike the fireball due to the shape of its hull

basically just go and try one before you buy.

hope that helped

Thatshelped a lot, i never notaced the 420s tippyness before probably because im used to the boat, is a fireball a boat where you have to trapeze in light winds (3 and below) or one where you start in 3+, bcause in the 420 ive been out in high 4s - 5s without needing it. I dont mind trapezing anyway just curious.

Thanks again

My wife and I are the same weight as you (together) we generaly start trapezing at around F3 in our L2. The benefits of an L2:- Lighter than a Fireball so easier to handle in the park and on the beach. Tougher and simpler than a Fireball so less likely to need expensive spares (unless you start buying Laser sails). Cheaper than a fireball to buy, for 3,000 you could get a first class L2 and then buy a brand new set of sails and then be faster than your average club Fireball, particularly on lumpy water. L2 easier to trailer. Laser 2 would better suit your weight 18-23 stone. I'm not a Fireball expert but isn't 19 stone a little on the light side. I think they quote 20-27 stone. Might be a handful in anythiing above F5 ????......One draw back to a L2 is the size of the fleet at nationals and opens (16 at the last nationals), should you decide to do them......

 We took these points into consideration when we were looking at both boats, finally settled on a L2 with no regrets......My opinion may be a little biased. 

i would say yes you would probally be trapzing in a F3, also you might be too light to keep up with the pack in F4-F5, so maybe consider a laser 2 until you get a bit heavier.

also a big factor is what is the main fleet at your club?

errm the main fleet is probably the GP14 with 50+ boats and following that maybe the lasers and illutions have a big fleet. Theres quite a lot of handicap races at the club. How would a 470 compare with the fireball on stability, the site says 110 - 145kg which i thinks pretty light. The laser on py doesnt seem far ahead of the 420 so how fast is it compared? Final question, is there any symmetric boats that are easy to sail, stable, easily depowered etc with a py sub 1000?

Hope you can help once again

I had a 420, then moved to the Laser 2. Initial impression was that it was appreciably more stable (while lake sailing) initially (i.e. about the upright position) than the 420 - I found that as helm I could hike out without feeling fidgety about needing to come in quickly as I had in the the 420, while trying to sail it upright.

Once you let it heel, however, water comes over the gunwale and it capsizes more easily than the 420 which hangs on to a higher angle of heel before capsizing. For those reasons I capsized the Laser 2 much more than the 420, which I capsized only once in over two years - the initial stability of the L2 means you stop thinking about the risk of going over, then suddenly it has happened. On an absolute scale though, both boats are 'stable'.

You're right that the L2 is not much quicker than a 420 - especially in windy weather, but it is longer so in F.2-3 it goes faster, and with that marvellous big kite (the best symmetric kite I ever used) set on the long pole, it planes earlier than the 420. I'd recommend it, with the reservation that you need to do a lot of work on the standard boat to make it raceworthy. Not expensive, but quite a lot of little things, unless you buy a ready prepped boat from a class expert. PM me if you buy an L2 and I'll list the things to do.

Coincidentally, I bought a Winder Fireball as my next boat. We'd sailed the L2 with 19 stone all-up and it was fine - ideal even, but we felt too light in the Fireball. It's also very stable initially, and we managed OK up to F4, but an 11-12 stone crew was much better. The 'ball is a lovely boat though - far more of a thoroughbred than the L2, which could have been OK with an illegal re-rig. Laser themselves did the necessary when they created the 3000, but that's an asymmetric, of course, so of no interest to you.

The Laser 2 copes fine with the waves on a small lake.

As for freeboard, that's half the fun - good sensation of speed. Not so good for roll tacking as the 420, but at least it's an adult boat! And it'll be manoeuvrable enough. Worth having for the kite alone.

http://www.fastsail.org/ - http://www.fastsail.org/

Try fastsail (a collection of fast symmetric classes helping each other out) for more info on sub 1000 classes.

i have not sailed a 470 however i would have thought it is just a bigger and faster version of the 420. however good second hand boats are hard to find as the amount of rig tension they use is alot which means the older boats are floppy and become weak.

 The L2 tacks and gybes on a sixpence,  shorter boat than the Fireball. The L2 comes up dry after a capsize and you can be sailing again instantly (provided the spinnakers not up)....Lots of cheap L2's about, around 500 - 800 but not worth touching, a good sorted one will cost between £1500 and £2000. New sails from sailboats UK will be £1,199 for all 3. so you could have change from £3000.

Ours cost £1500 2 years ago from a guy at Bewl and it was immaculate, we have invested in new sails this year.

Edit,,,,,We've just aquired a Laser 2 never used Blue and dayglo yellow spinnaker on e-bay. They should see us comming now (briefly)

Please remember I'm biased