At my local club the banks are covered in fishermen. But there is a fisherman's bailiff, and if we have any problems they get chucked out.

Hi everyone,

In my opinion the sailors are out of order.  On the sea, the fishermen have as much right to fish as sailors have to sail.  We all know that in certain conditions, sailors 'short tack' along the shore for the benefit of less tide.  If boats sail too close to the shore where people are fishing, it is inconsiderate as the fishermen can easily be spotted and the area immediately infront of them can be avoided.  Fishermen do not usually have to have a licence or a permit, or be a member of a club, to fish in the sea.

To sail within thirty yards or so of the fishermen is out of order.  It is obvious that if this occurs then lines will be broken and tackle lost, at the cost of a few pounds and causing inconvenience, particularly if the fishermen do not have spare tackle with them.  The problem is worse if the water is fairly shallow as some fishermen who are 'beachcasting' might be casting over a hundred yards so their lines could be quite high in the water for a considerable distance (alot more than thirty yards).

It is a case of both anglers and sailors being considerate to each other in order to avoid conflict.  It is not difficult.  One of the problems is that many fishermen do not understand what racing is about or what the sailors are doing.  I was speaking to a tackle dealer last week who fishes on a local tarn where there is a sailing club and sailing school.  He made the same complaint about the sailors.  I asked him where he was fishing and why.  He said that he was fishing near to a 'buoy' as it was a 'feature' (ground tackle, weights and chains, etc.) for fish to be attracted to.  The so called 'buoy'  was in fact a 'windward mark' so there was little wonder that he was bothered with boats.  I spent some time explaining to him about sailing and racing and he said that it was the first time, in fifty years, that anyone had explained things to him.  He also admitted that he had never made any effort to find out. 

Sailing through lines, throwing stones or casting hooks, leads, worms and maggots at sails is out of order. A bit of consideration, forward planning and maybe a few words of explanation is all that is needed.

Ian  (Yorkshire Dales S.C.)  

I'm not sure who is "in the right" here that's why I asked the Question, but surely another point of view could be that with thousands of miles of coast line available why fish right next to a sailing club, a bit bloody minded perhaps......As it happens, a committee member and I did go and have a chat with them afterwards and it all ended up quite friendly we where very reasonable after what seemed like attempted murder by the lead slinging fisherman. 

People causing distress or suffering to other creatures for sport deserve all they get.

And I've found that towing around 30 metres of fishing line and a hook after an 'incident' doesn't slow you down as much as you might expect . Can wear a groove in the front of your board though...

We had an incident at Whitstable with kids throwing stones ... one landed in a Merlin ... idiots.

With the fishermen in this case I think you should have given them more space but casting at you is pretty stupid ...

You have a choice where you sail but they can hardly fish anywhere else ...

You have to avoid this confrontation, if you antagonise each other you will both suffer. 

Perhaps it would have been possible to lay a bouy offshore so that all boats had to pas to seaward of it, or perhaps lay a different course altogether.  At Bough Beech reservior we have made a particular effort to get on with the fishermen and it has paid dividends.  We have a rule to sail no closer than 50m to a fisherman.  The fisher men know this and if a boat capsises and drifts onto their area they are most tolerant.  Its the only way.

Incidentaly I used to fish on a canal, often just before a canal boat arrived the fish would make a hasty bite - so don't assume a boat will put the fish off.  However you can assume sailing over somebody's tackle will anoy them.

I've never been a member of a club where sailing so close to the beach is possible but what does surprise me is that the club does not have any special rules or guidance. One of my current clubs (a lake) has certain areas where boats must keep at least 30m from the shore to give the fishermen room. That is not the entire shore, just about 30% of the shore. They can fish happily, we can sail happily - we all go home happy without arguments. Surprising that the OPs club does not have similar rules but maybe they should now think about introducing some to avoid similar situations (e.g. all racing boats to stay at least xx distance from the shore). You might not be able to dodge as much tide but everybody would be in the same boat (sorry - I could not resist that one).

Ian

How do you judge 30m or 50m?

I'd have thought everyone would gradually nudge closer to the shore to avoid the risk of being disadvantaged/to gain an advantage (the same reason they go aground).

 Our beach does have bouys that mark swimming areas and we don't stray into these areas. The area without bouys in front of our club is for the sailors, the incident with the fishermen happened in this area. Beach based sailing clubs do not have the whole ocean to race in as suggested by some of you. It does seem that most (not all) fishermen think they have the god given right to fish where ever they want to and resent giving a few hundred yards of beach to anyone else. Yes lets all get along and co-operate and let the fishermen fish everywhere and anyone who interferes deserves to be outcast and assaulted.

Bit of a rant I know but I'm over 50 so it's allowed OK

Actually organised fishing competitions are common.

You may also find that fishermen will say they are fishing for food, not just for entertainment.

I think you will find that legally, they do have the right to cast from public beaches, whereas legally, sailors don't have the right to wilfully destroy other people's property. 

Originally posted by MRJP BUZZ 585 Originally posted by lozza Originally posted by Medway Maniac People causing distress or suffering to other creatures for sport deserve all they get. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n333YESORsw&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fnuggets%2Emu%2Enu%2F%3Fp%3D407 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n333YESORsw&eurl=http%3A% 2F%2Fnuggets%2Emu%2Enu%2F%3Fp%3D407 Cool, is that of a program/film?

Chewin the fat

I think the point has been missed here Jim, He didn't do it on purpose.  It is very hard to judge how far a fisherman casts out especially with the tide taking his line as well.  Throwing Things such as lead and stones etc is VERY DANGEROUS what happens if you get knocked out and drown!!!! Or even worse they damage your boat!   Having said that I don’t agree with people antagonising the fisherman, leave them alone they have just as much right to be there as us, also anyone that chucks stones at your boat is just as likely to come back at night and bash the Fu£k out of it!!

I have sailed at many clubs where sailors have to stay a certain distance from the bank where there are fishermen. What seems odd is that the fishermen don't seem to have the similar rule where they have to fish within the same area. On the river I've hit lines which were stretched right across from one bank to the other, giving no room for canoes to get through, let alone sailing dinghies. And then they get annoyed when you run into it. I've often wondered about the general IQ level of fishermen, but then to want to do a "sport" which involves sticking a metal hook into an animal's mouth suggests a very selfish attitude to life anyway.

Having said all that, most of the fishermen at Whitefriars are pretty good about where they fish, generally using the areas less disturbed by boats, where I would guess there are more fish anyway. Have to agree with the comment about the amount of rubbish left behind, though.

If you are a vegetarian, you are entitled to take that view. Anyone who eats meat should perhaps familarise themselves with the lives of factory-produced animals, and the methods by which they are transported and slaughtered, before taking a high moral tone towards fishermen.

I am neither a fisherman nor a vegetarian but I have friends who fish and I don't think "a very selfish attitude to life" is a label I'd attach to them. 

Anyone who has ever had a fish hook stuck in their flesh knows how painful it is. The pain is no different for fish. Quote: Dr R. Buwalda, Department of Comparative Physiology, Rijks University, The Netherlands "Fish are no mere reflex-automatons, but animals capable of experiencing pain and fear and influenced behaviourally by experience, expectancies and motivational state in a manner analogous to that in higher animals up to man. "

 What would you think if someone caught a cat or dog with a baited hook, then reeled them in and drowned them? This is exactly what happens to fish in the name of "sport". By no means all fishermen eat their prey, Tom, lots just let them go again.

But fish suffer even if they are released again. Firstly there is the injury caused by the hook. Secondly there is the stress of being removed from the water. Finally there is the damage caused by handling. Fish have a layer of skin and mucous over the scales. This layer is very sensitive, and is essential for the health of the fish, for example, to keep out infection. Damaging a fish's slime coat has been likened to third degree burns in humans.

Some fishing authorities recommend that fish to be released are not removed from the water or, if they are, that they are handled only with wet hands, are only put down on wet material, and are landed only in knotless nets. Such recommendations reduce but don't eliminate pain and suffering. No fish benefits from being hooked and dragged to the surface, no matter how carefully it is handled and released once it gets there.

Surely that gives sailors sufficient moral high ground?

A line can be cast a long long way by a skilled fisherman with the right equipment.  They are virtually impossible to see and therefore virtually impossible to avoid, even when one is trying to be cooperative.  So saying that it's up to the sailors to keep clear of the lines doesn't work.  I agree that sailors don't have the right to simply sail through the lines and destroy the fishermen's tackle, but it is very difficult to avoid what you can't see.

We had a race yesterday where the whole fleet was short-tacking against the tide round a very steeply-shelving point with people fishing off it - luckily in this case the lead boat kindly drew attention to the folks fishing that that big swarm of boats behind would all be passing close by shortly and there was no incident.  Any boat being 'kind' by doing a 50yard detour around the point might as well have sailed straight home since their race would be over.  Tricky problem.

Mike

Mike

We didn't wilfully drag their lines, I thought we where clear. And I don't actually want yards of line and lead weight, hooks dragging from my centerboard. During an enjoyable Sunday's racing I don't want a confrontation with them either.

Their seems to be one or two people who in one breath suggest co-operation of beach users and then suggest  steering clear of the fishermen.......So everyone co-operates except the fisherman who fish where they want, maybe it's time the fishermen (women) realised that they do not own the waterways, beaches of the UK and that they have to co-operate and compromise as well as every one else.

Here's a petition that could cause problems for Anglers.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Canoeists/ - http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Canoeists/

Not if you eat factory farmed chicken or bacon. Or does "out of sight, out of mind" make it OK? Is it acceptable to buy cheap meat made from animals who live out desolate and miserable lives, so long as we pay someone else to do the dirty work for us?

Same thing here turnturtle.  I grew up in area of commerical fishing.  It was a general rule of thumb to steer clear of the fishing trawlers.  They are trying to make a living, despite being screwed over by the EU.  So steering clear of them was respect.  As for pleasure fishing, its a two way street.  If you respect them, you hope they will respect your sport.

Another thing I gave way to/avoided, were tourist day ferries... because they would run you down.  Enterprise ones were great, they use to steer behind you - great fun surfing the wake.  However the red ferries... well they actually hit a boat a while back.

Wait a minute, wasn't that the smokers' argument? (and, for that matter, the bear baiters, the slave owners etc. etc.)

That's a bit of a presumption, isn't it?

It's a question of where you draw the line on cruelty, and especially just for sport.

People could, and have, tried to justify anything on the basis that 'we should be free to do what we choose', but in my view it's not universally applicable and should only apply if it doesn't interfere with the rights and freedoms of others. I'd include animals there. You apparently would disagree with that?

Maedway it seems to me that if you carry on your agument to its fullest extent maybe we shouldn't be sailing in water that might have fish in them because we might scare or even worse hit them with our c/b or rudder.

I personaly don't see the fun in angling but if its banned because one group of socity don't like it its just the thin end of the wedge.

Just look at fox hunting, now reportedly more popular than ever with hunts using bizzar legal loop holes, it hear on radio4 the other day that one hunt take a barn owl out with them so they are hunting legaly with birds of pray and not illegaly with dogs

I don't recall asking for fishing to be banned, though it's true that I do disapprove of it.

As for foxhunting, that's just a question of getting the law right, but given that foxhunters are often the law-makers that might prove to be a long job. But we digress.

I guess I'm just explaining why I don't feel guilty if I happen to take out people's lines, just as Turnturtle apparently wouldn't feel guilty smoking in the company of non-smokers in a pub. I wouldn't deliberately take out lines though, and give small commercial fishermen a decent space - like someone said, it's their living (till the stocks run out! - no, please don't take us off at that tangent, anybody!)

It seems to me that suggests that a person fishing shouldn't feel guilty if they acidentaly cast there line in such a way so that the hook becomes inbeded in a sailor because they dont approve of sailing and the nasty chemicals used to make your boat.

I am not pro fishing althought I have been known to trail a line whilest crusing but I am pro the peoples right to do that which has limited negative effects on others.

 Thanks for your responses, an interesting divide of opinions. It seems there are those that fish and those that don't, not a fisherman myself. I guess the problem will only be resolved by clear communication between the sports.......

ooops sorry, double post

i missed this thread but im going to add my opinion now:

at my club we start from one of two start lines set off the shore from the club house. we have two posts offshore marking the ends of these lines and a transit on the club house. the fisherman tend to cast their lines straight down our start line or very near to it. this as you can imagine causes problems. what we do to solve this problem is before the race starts the race officer willl/any flag officer around will go down to the fisherman outside the club and politely explain to the fisherman that in the next half an hour there are going to be lots of boats milling around here and your lines are probably going to get taken out by a dagger board if you continue to fish here so would you very kindly just move round to the other side of the haven for a while as it would be in eveyones best interests. this tactic normally works very well but occaisonaly we get some pillocks who keep on fishing or occaisonally the race officer doesnt go and speak to the fisherman. in these circumstances; as i tend to be one of the first boats out, i go over to the fisherman before and try to explain again and then they tend to move during the start. if they dont they risk their lines on about 10 laser daggerboards several mirror daggerboards and any other boats that are out.

there have of course been a few incidents, but they tend to be resolved without too much hassel. most fisherman are really reasonable people.

Originally posted by getafix although if I see a commercial whaling boat in the solent I'll get Obelix to sink it....... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTJWmhEOp3s -

If I saw a commercial whaling boat in the Solent I'd keep well clear. With and enormous gun on the bow and a "take no prisoners" attitude they would probably win what faced with a challenge from my Laser.

I'm amazed that some (one at least) clubs close to fishing spots have not come to arrangements with the fishermen such that everybody can enjoy their sport. That said, the other day I did have to do a sharp tack when I noticed this swimming hat (attached to a swimmer) close under the bow. Now the club also has an arrangement with swimmers and they are normally penned-in by shark nets (though no sharks in the pond). Early in the season so no shark nets yet so the swimmers have taken free reign.

Ian

Rogerd,

 Seems like your club have worked hard to achieve a reasonable solution to a very tricky problem, good post.

 Our problem is slightly different in that there are no baliffs on the beach to explain the situation to the anglers. The sea anglers tend to be different people each week. During light winds, some boats just will not make it around the course in time if beating upwind against tide unless they go in shore. On the plus side, the fishermen only tend to be there 1.5 or so hrs either side of high tide, upwind leg is not always along the shore or against tide, if it's a neap tide the advantage inshore is minimal. So the  problems we had on Sunday rarely arise. As infuriating as it is to have lead weights hurled at us, in order to avoid escalation the answer is obviously a diplomatic one. If a fisherman is anti social enough to to bomb us with lead then he is probably capable of comming back to the club later and vandalising our boats.

   I think a possible solution would be for the OOD to dispatch a diplomatic party along the beach prior to the race and explain to the anglers that today we would like a turn to play on this part on the coast....... Helpfull responses everyone.

Agreed; but much harder to do at a sea club where many of the fishermen are casual and not part of a reconised club.

If the beach is close to the club, maybe put up some signs (or even just a bit of wood) and on days where conditions mean coming close inshore put out some sheet/signs saying that Yacht racing will probably involve coming close to the shore today (with a date so people can see it is today) maybe some brief explanation and an apology in advance for disruption to other sportsmen.

Just something like that might reduce the grief as at least the fishermen will realise you have thought about them.

Ian

Mirror dinghies now have a historical gaff, too!