After a few beers and a discussion over racing formats for entertainment we came up with the above.

No cats, roto moulds or boats with keels allowed - max length 16'

Which dinghy class would win?

A class would be elimitated when the boat sank or the crew unable to carry on through injury.

What to you guys think ... a slow Wayfarer would take a royal pounding off the faster more nippy boats but would the roubst nature be enough?

Fireballs have a good bow shape for punching a good hole but not so hot on the defense ...

Laser proabably pretty good as the attacker would probably just rise over the deck but the helm may get a bit mangled ...

So ... what class would win?

Assuming that it is less than 16 feet, I would imagine that this was a shoe in.......The Bosun.

Rumours abound that when the Army/Navy/RAF were selecting a design for them to all use, each manufacturer provided 1 test boat, and they navy then dropped each design (yes you guessed it) off the flight deck of the Ark Royal.

Although this story may be an urban myth, the fact that the Bosun won is certainly credible, isn't it...!

Chas

We can relax the 16' rule a bit I suppose.

I figure the FD would be a bit fragile on defense.

Cherub not enough weight to inflict damage on others.

The Laser 5000 may be a good option - plenty of weight & speed with bull bars for defense ...

Nah - still a bosun for me.

Vertical wooden prow, so that means that if any pesky little carbon boat got impaled there, then all you'd need to replace was that single slat of wood.

Built like a tank

Chas

Have you ever been hit by a Topper....... They are bloody lethal.  They have to be a candidate for last man standing.

Ah should the Topper be disallowed from this as it is the original injection moulded boat - does that make it a roto mould?

I would go for the bosun as they take so much abuse. Or what about an inflatable boat such as a Tinker. Only problem is that it would just bounce off of everything. Would be fun trying to burst it with a 12ft Skiff pole

Are points gained or lost for hitting the helm/crew? 

Reckon the laser 2 stands a very good chance.

Helm could well become injured and have to retire hurt ... bit exposed to a 5 tonner running them over at full chat ...

Yes fair comment, but having seen our lot of beginner yoofs charging around in Toppers they (crew and boat) appear to be oblivious of and impervious to any knd of external influence what so ever.  

A 5k at full chat may be the answer though.  Would certainly make your eyes water.

Surely the massive deacceleration of a 5tonner etc would factor in.  Going for full chat to 0 in a couple of seconds is going to hurt… alot

17ft 7ins I'm afraid.......

I think it has to be a hiking boat....you couldn't charge down another boat at anything like full speed whilst on the wire,and in any event the result is likely capsize.  Whereas a wayfarer / bosun is just going to keep on going, crew is well protected etc

We need someone with some game theory experience to get to work on this.  List the factors: crew protection, bow strength, max KE, etc....then weight them and you're off.

Enough students come on this forum asking for help on their project to design a new widget...they should try this as a project / thesis, much more interesting!

The first draft of the rules said you were only out after sinking or injury....that leaves capsized boats as fair game.

Suggests good tactic would be sit outside the melee and just periodically charge your Bosun / Wayfare in and trash some hulls whilst they are overturned and therefore more vulnerable.

Jim,

Good to see some figures applied but are we not looking at forces resulting from a change of momentum.

http://www.iop.org/activity/education/Teaching_Resources/Teaching%20Advanced%20Physics/Mechanics/Momentum/page_4160.html - http://www.iop.org/activity/education/Teaching_Resources/Tea ching%20Advanced%20Physics/Mechanics/Momentum/page_4160.html

If we assume that the final speed after impact is zero then the force would just be  F= mv making the velocity less important.

We also have to take into account the ability of the boat to protect the crew and avoid/sustain attacks.

I'm still voting Laser 5000

Nah - just nip in off the wire just before impact ... or lock in to the foot loops and brace yourself ...

The boss is prob a candidate, is it under 16ft?

A contender may be the laser stratos. Big and heavy with an asy pole and big enough asy to achive a good ramming speed. People may be tempted by a sport 16, Topper's giant training hulk, but anyone that has worked for sunsail will tell you the hole VERY easily.

The 5 tonner prob gets my vote as long as the rig stands up to the forces from high speed impact.

Agreed - I think it should be like forces boxing - extra points awarded for aggression.

I don't know what ISAF have been playing at with this medal race rubbish - this would be a real winner with the media ...

re jessie-ing...fair point.

In fact, let's make this nautical equivalent of 'milling' in the paras...make all Navy recruits sit in lasers and beat seven bells out of each other for an hour....might toughen them up a bit....

im thinking that anything with a symetric kite that is well built is a good bet, wayfarer especialy. what you do, take your spinnaker pole, attach ships knife to it (duct tape) whenever semeone comes near brandish pole threateningly, if they catch on hide inside the boat. theres plenty of space in a wayfarer afterall.

sails could be slashed with the knife to leave them sitting ducks for your 3 sail reach wayfarer ram.

how would a foiling moth fare in this new sport? it could run like hell when necessary and the hull is fairly protected by wings but they're so fragile. also moth sailors are a bit on the runtish side for any "pirate" tactics.

Ok in the single handed category gotta be the Finn, weighs a tonne and can get some decent speed out of it for ramming, built pretty solidly, plus you could tacticaly capsize just before being t-boned and use the metal centreboard as a defence weapon! Plus most finn sailors are built like the proverbial brick s**t houses

Only problem is it's much like doing a kamikaze move, there's quite a chance it'll take you out as well as your opposition, and i've had got the bruises to testify to that.

Nah - hold it in France where they don't bother to take any notice of daft regulations.

LAME!

This thread IMO, is the moment the Y&Y forum jumped the shark.

Seriously guys, this was the sort of discussion I used to have when I was 12.  However, whenever a topic comes along that's actually about real sailing, like the height vs. footing one, hardly anyone's interested and it fizzles out. So anyway, have fun, I'm off.

oh well that was nice...

 can the topper really be allowed to compete if it is injection moulded, isnt that a bit close to rotomould?

continuing from the taking out the moth idea... if we were to run team events like this, 3 per team about 5 teams at a time, last team standing? that opens it up for a whole variety of tacticts, cheese wires,  t-boning from both sides, one boat covering the other team so his team mate has an easy kill. also it could make pirate tacticts much more feasable.

I think the bosun would win but only if it were an old design because the new designs are a bit rubbishy. The old designs are built like tanks and will go through anything, Toppers included! The Camber where the nationals were held the other year has bosun shaped dents in parts of the thick stone wall - I kid you not!

Now team that with the huge gorilla of a helm that you get racing them and a quick little crew and you've got a pretty effective challenger

Guys guys guys,

 there's only one boat! The Laser 5000, have you ever been on the receiving end of 180kgs traveling at 20 knots with racks out the sides by 6 feet and a 6 foot pole out the front?

Well neither have I  but I can put you in touch with people who have (and they're still getting therapy )

We have had a "cough" few incidents with other boats over the years and except for once never a scratch. The once we almost sank a Flying fifteen but it meant we took a chip out of our gelcoat!.....oh and bent one of the racks.

And it was an accident!!!!!

I agree about the 5 tonner. But it could make dodging other boats a bit difficult trying to twin-wire/twin-wire tack between a fleet of Lasers trying to "broadside" you.

Maybe the slightly more nimble 4 tonner would be a better choice?

Ace thread...

The ISO with it's wings on could take some punishment, but an unlucky hit forwards would see it sunk in minutes.

Having repaired a 2' square hole in the side of a N12 that was hit by a very slow moving Bosun a few years ago, I would have to go for that. The boat had to survive being dropped 20' onto concrete to get the nod from the Navy, so the small matter of another dinghy isn't really going to bother it. As for the 12' skiff, wouldn't it be fun to ram the pole 1/2 way down it's length and watch it fold?

This thread is entertaining. Also:

interesting how many different versions of the story there are about where exactly the navy decided to drop those designs from..!

Does anyone actually know?  And what happened to the other designs?

Suspecting that those still voting for boats that actually plane upwind won't have seen a bosun in the flesh.

Imagine a 12-14 foot version of a National 18, that weighs about the same!

Does anyone have a picture?

• Length overall &# 4.27m
• Beam &# 1.68m
• Draft (plate fully down) &# 1.37m
• Hull weight &# 168 kg --- didnt realise a 4m dinghy could weigh that much!
• Total sail area - Main/Genoa &# 10.7 sq m
• Total spinnaker area (approx) &# 10.00 sq m
• Construction &# GRP
• Racing crew &# 3/4
• Sailing skill level &# Starter/Intermediate
  
• http://www.sailbosun.freeserve.co.uk/ACTION%20SHOTS%20VARIOUS.html#anchor75622 - http://www.sailbosun.freeserve.co.uk/ACTION%20SHOTS%20VARIOU S.html#anchor75622

2 Bosuns at Cobnor last September.

It was a training weekend, and very windy despite the flat water, so the small sails were on. The following day, we had force 8 gusts and had to reef these sails! 

You could do it on a smaller scale by buying up a few old boats that had been abandoned at clubs - £100 limit and wait for a good 20knot day ... it would be a laugh ...

I would bet on the 5000 being the last boat afloat, Javelin as runner up.

The RS300 hull could be quite effective for deflecting impacts, its main weapon would be to t-bone capasized boats. 

The bosun could take a beating, but would never be agile or quick enough to dish it out.

Allan beat me to it - the Javelin would have to be a contender - speed weight solid build.

The 5000 would lose its sprit in the first frontal collision and after that it would be slow downwind - capsize a lot and once inverted be a really big target!

The Javelin even has its genoa set well back from the bow so unlike any boat with the jib flying off the bowplate, should retain use of all sails for longest.

The Bosuns at our club eventually died because the transoms fell out (only known weakness and that took 20 years of total neglect!)

We have a Javelin in our graveyard (criminal waste) so get an event organised and I'll be there.

i think if you got everyone taking part to sign something to say they dont mind if they die and that the boats are theirs and they know they will probably be unsailable after the event it should be okay.

are you being serious about the sponsor?

When you consider this would best be done on a 20 acre lake somewhere to avoid people running away, absolute speed is not all that important. Turning circle might be, though, but all the really nimble boats (Fireflies, Ents etc) would be matchwood in minutes, so the bosun wouldn't be any worse than a 5000.

I think this is probebly something that will only ever happen in our heads, unless some computer gaming genius can create a virtual lake with all the boats on with their individual characteristics? 

Originally posted by turnturtle Originally posted by Villan Just think of all the extra claims the poor insurance companies will have to put up with! I wonder if thats why they havn't joined in yet! james I'm kinda guessing that insurers wouldn't cover it.... conversely think of the all the boat filler that would be sold afterwards!

Forget boat filler, think of the bonfire after

They should have been there when the army cut up and burnt "This way up"

Miracles are fair game, though...

Bonfire night 05th Nov 06 at LSC

ive heard rumors about a bonfire night at HHSC when we had a furball and a mirror on the bonfire, along with all the usual bits of dead groyne and garden waste that we used* to be allowed to bring down that must have been a sight.

*insurance say we cant do it any more.

We have had a fireball on the Cadet week bonfire along with a Cat trailer box. Not yet had anything more exciting!

My dead A class   Burnt a treat though - west epoxy  goes up pretty quick !

That is no urban myth. Part of the design spec was that the hull had to survive being dropped from 50ft and still be seaworthy.

Whether or not they actually used the flight deck of the (current at the time) Ark Royal is another matter.

Yer those bosuns used to be dropped outa planes............I think it was the bosun anyway!!

Id go for a Boss in this challenge - big, heavy and powerful - gota be a retractable pole, ie 12ft skiff pole wud get stuck. At least with another pole u can just pull it back into the boat!!!

eons ago there was a moth regatta in RQYS Brisbane Australia. Back in the days of scows, anyway after the presentation one sailor got the sh*ts with his boat after a week of damage and decided to burn it.

the club didnt take well to a burning moth up the flagpole on their lawns. Aparently moths are still banned form the club.

Not my vintage but the story was relayed to me by someone who claims to have beeen present but sheepishly denies involvement.

I've got a print of this picture somewhere at home but couldn't find it to scan it in so used the one of the fotoboat website instead.

Bosun Nationals '05 - Huge waves out of Plymouth's RN Camber ASA base. The Bosuns just sail through them!!! Hard as nails boats. I could imagine them getting dropped out of helicopters onto aircraft carriers undamaged.