Sailing Speed Record
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2811
Printed Date: 18 Aug 25 at 8:20pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Sailing Speed Record
Posted By: boatshed
Subject: Sailing Speed Record
Date Posted: 27 Mar 07 at 9:55pm
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Sail Rocket have just hit 33 knots in 16 knots of wind, which is pretty impressive stuff. However...... Crossbow reached 36 knots in 1980 and Yellow Pages record of 46.52 knots ( in 19 knots of wind ! ) stood for years until recently topped by a board. There are plenty of speed experts on this forum, so my question is, do we think Sail Rocket will crack the 50 knot barrier ? My view is that control is an issue above 20 knots of wind, unless you have a board. This alone will make the 50 knot + barrier a tough one. Therefore, boat speed as a multiple of wind speed becomes the key factor, ie efficiency. Of course, if you can control the beast, then higher wind speeds are an option - Moths even top 26 knots conforming to their class rules !
------------- Steve |
Replies:
Posted By: olly_love
Date Posted: 27 Mar 07 at 11:12pm
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hasnt the french tri got 47 knots. it isnt to far till they get it and that isnt a specialised speed machine. ------------- TWO FRANK-Hunter Impala |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 27 Mar 07 at 11:33pm
Well it wasnt designed for fishing! ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 28 Mar 07 at 7:13am
| Several quite different types of craft have pegged out in the high 40s... That's where you start getting badly into cavitation problems. That seems to me to be the big problem area. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 28 Mar 07 at 9:15am
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I have no idea if any of these guys will make it but I think it is fantastic that they are all giving it a go ... ------------- |
Posted By: guytoon
Date Posted: 28 Mar 07 at 1:57pm
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Honestly, Sailrocket is an amazing craft but seems too have huge conception and control issues. I would be more confident in the Hydroptere project. This record concept has a huge 20 year history but seems to be currently at its top level in strenght, speed capacity, control ... They manage in their first trials after refit to reach 45 + knts ------------- Cherub 2692 "NBS" |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 28 Mar 07 at 2:42pm
| The most likely is of course Cunningham's team, but they need to be able to overcome their chronic money problems, especially as their current venue seems to have gone light airs on them. They'd have been there years ago with the Hydroptere budget... |
Posted By: aardvark_issues
Date Posted: 28 Mar 07 at 4:42pm
| But with a far less usefull boat! |
Posted By: Contender 541
Date Posted: 28 Mar 07 at 6:11pm
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And of course Crossbow has lead the way for a thousand innovations into the sailing world - offset hulls are all the rage now ------------- When you find a big kettle of crazy it's probably best not to stir it - Pointy Haired Boss Crew on 505 8780 |
Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 28 Mar 07 at 6:14pm
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Which is the most useful
Hyrdoptere sailrocket crossbow yellow pages errr none of the above are useful! ------------- " rel="nofollow - http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk Andy P foiling Int Moth GBR3467 Freedom 21 Codling |
Posted By: aardvark_issues
Date Posted: 28 Mar 07 at 6:28pm
| well, im pretty sure only one of those will go in both directions without a support boat! |
Posted By: Chew my RS
Date Posted: 28 Mar 07 at 7:59pm
| Don't forget Monofoil. Similar to Sailrocket, but in my opinion a slightly better thought through design. Not built yet tthough, which kinda slows it down somewhat... |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 28 Mar 07 at 8:37pm
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whats monofoil? ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: aardvark_issues
Date Posted: 28 Mar 07 at 8:41pm
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http://www.monofoil.com/
I'd love some of whatever they were smoking when they came up with that... |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 28 Mar 07 at 9:10pm
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looks errrm ambicous good luck to them though ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 28 Mar 07 at 10:25pm
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Interesting replies but none from record chasers. I'm with Rick and good on anyone going for the record. I have some questions... Can boards go even faster or does control at high wind speed become an issue for them ? Do boards sail faster than the wind ? I know ice yachts are very quick ( multiple of wind speed vs hull speed) so is there some knowledge to be gleaned from their very high apparent wind sail plans ?
------------- Steve |
Posted By: Wes
Date Posted: 29 Mar 07 at 9:49am
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Yes, boards can go faster than the wind, and speed windsurf sails can power an ice yacht to much faster than 50knt speeds. So, it's not rig sails that are the limiting factor. On ice there is virtually no friction, on water it's another story. One from left field - Kites. No fins, can do it in 4" of water so more places open to them and they've already cracked 50knts (admitidly for a burst, not average) Believe me I'd like anything other than a kite to get the next increase, but I have a feeling.... |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 29 Mar 07 at 1:59pm
errr.. I use the 'yellow pages' all the time, that's pretty useful. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: aardvark_issues
Date Posted: 29 Mar 07 at 6:25pm
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The sailboard record runs tend to be at very high windspeeds and I dont
think exceed the windspeed at the time. There is no doubting that they can exceed the windspeed further down the wind range though. Finians last record run on the board also clocked bursts over 50 knots. |
Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 27 Apr 07 at 11:42pm
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Oh no not good news from Sail Rocket - check this out http://www.sailrocket.com/news.htm - http://www.sailrocket.com/news.htm Not a very happy sailor, lets wish him luck. ------------- Bonnie Lass Contender 1764 |
Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 28 Apr 07 at 5:07pm
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As has been noted, control seems to be a problem. Funny how scaling things up from a model seems to always throw up unexpected problems. Lets hope its not the end of the Sailrocket attempt. ------------- Steve |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 28 Apr 07 at 9:22pm
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I hope they can recover - it's great they they are having a go ... ------------- |
Posted By: Contender 541
Date Posted: 29 Apr 07 at 8:55pm
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Not good, not good at all. Fingers crossed for Paul and the team ------------- When you find a big kettle of crazy it's probably best not to stir it - Pointy Haired Boss Crew on 505 8780 |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 29 Apr 07 at 8:59pm
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am i right in thinking that the wing just fell off? thats what it looked like from one of the videos but am i looking at the right one? if it did thats seriously not good and the best of luck to them in fixing it. ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: kissmyrs
Date Posted: 30 Apr 07 at 8:33pm
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That was probably their last crash from a few weeks/months? ago. Latest one was just posted: http://www.sailrocket.com/images/movie9.wmv - http://www.sailrocket.com/images/movie9.wmv Be warned, its not a pretty sight for followers... Sounds like they're got some new ideas about there problems though. ------------- |
Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 01 May 07 at 10:23pm
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Once got 31.2 knots outa my old cherub during a 45 knot squall at weymouth - that was fun considering the boat always nose dived!!! I miss that boat! Never knew when it was gona pitchpole, even upwind! Oh well, 12ft for LIFE!! ------------- -12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites' -Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors. Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 01 May 07 at 10:33pm
GPS spike I suspect - no doubt you were going fast but do your really think you did that speed? ------------- |
Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 01 May 07 at 10:46pm
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Hell yer - even the safety officer of the day called me up as hes the chap who does weymouth speed week, as the big ole rib was havin to put on serious pace to catch us! We already had the kite up, twinin down wind when the wind came though - dead flat water, and just drove it!! well - hangin on for dear life with my back foot looped through the gantry - REALLY hoping not to go down the mine. Honestly ive never been so fast in my life, just felt the hull skimming the water - thats the only way I can descibe it! Since then ive hit around 27/ 28 knots in my current cherub and hit 26.1 on the last ever run of my cherub before i sold it! ------------- -12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites' -Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors. Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff |
Posted By: BBSCFaithfull
Date Posted: 01 May 07 at 10:53pm
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That was the foiler though wasnt it? Thats a bit of an unfair advantage if so lol
------------- Greatfully Sponsored By www.allgoodfun.com Int 14 GBR 1503!! |
Posted By: Calum_Reid
Date Posted: 01 May 07 at 11:01pm
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cough haha foiler haha cough
I mean that was never fully developed ------------- 
|
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 02 May 07 at 12:15am
Got GPS plots for any of these ? ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: aardvark_issues
Date Posted: 02 May 07 at 2:32pm
My sort of comment... Keep it up! |
Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 02 May 07 at 4:19pm
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hmmmm ------------- |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 02 May 07 at 5:14pm
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That's just a pic of a boat with some moth foils put in for fun/PR stunt ... If you look there is a huge gap between the daggerboard case and the daggerboard - clearly those foils are not for that hull ... ------------- |
Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 02 May 07 at 6:40pm
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Yes, I never got her foiling - I got all the bits done, and just needed to re-do the dagger case. Unfortunately because I spent so long faffing around with all the little bits the nationals was soon upon me and I didnt want to go cutting the boat apart a few weeks before this as well, as at the same time I was putting in a stump for max height and new rules rig!! Then I started looking at getting a 12ft skiff, so I just put the entire project on a back burner. I took the photo and showed one or two people of what a foiler cherub would look like, then before I knew it, it was in Y&Y. DSM etc etc etc!! It wasnt a PR stunt - just a pic to see what itll look like once its done! You never know - there may be a fully foiling 12ft skiff one day......... but I dont think ill try it just yet! Think itll take all the fun out of pounding down the waves! ------------- -12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites' -Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors. Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 02 May 07 at 6:50pm
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yeah ... nice bit of PR, someone sent it to the media ... Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 07 May 07 at 11:37pm
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... meanwhile on topic... I see hydroptere has given up short distance speed records for now and is leaving the all comers 500m to Finnian Maynard. Off to tick off some cross channel records. Will it not do 50knots then? Or is the windy season over? ... meanwhile off topic GPS'd our 40HP rib on Sat. A mere 23.8knts flat out. Andy's 28knts is VERY fast. 50knts is hard to believe. ------------- Javelin 558 Contender 2574 |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 08 May 07 at 1:03am
31+ would put you within 3 knots of the fastest speed recorded in an 18 Foot Skiff. That was in Entrad, pictured in Bethwaite, in a big big westerly. I think the hull weighed 67kg or something; she had 22' wings, and 3 or 4 rigs so the small sails were designed for high windspeeds which makes a big difference. She was sailed by a multiple world champ, former Australia II crew, who sailed her for a living. 31+ puts you at the same speed that one of the fastest of the 900 windsurfers in GPS Windsurfing's world rankings recorded as his top speed on his FW board. It puts you knots faster than a multi world champ has recorded in 12 Foot Skiffs, 18 Foot Skiffs or 49ers......knots faster than a foiler Moth.....knots faster than any Tornado, I think. |
Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 08 May 07 at 10:36am
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Hi Chris, I know - it was mental!!! & I have never come close to that speed again - although I do try! The main advantage was the boat - It was designed for strong winds, I never started to pick up speed unless it wa blowing over a F4. It had a flat kite, and we were already twining with the kite up when the squall came through! & yes, we did brown ourselves! & windsurfers have got 48 knots - so not that hard to believe that a windsurfer can 'easily' hit say 35 knots. 12's & cherubs tend to reach around 25 ish knots in the strong stuff (must remember, out in OZ the waves are huuge - so as you get speed on you leap out the water, if you have dead falt water your gona go faster! Moths top out about the same speed which is mainly due to the foils (Im currently looking at designing supercaviting moth foils for my disseratation). So I could be wrong on that front. ------------- -12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites' -Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors. Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 May 07 at 10:47am
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I don't know that there are very many really well documented speeds for Cherubs and 12s around 25... One of the things everyone is learning is how unreliable GPS and other peak speeds are. The Moths are now doing analysis of GPS plots to get sustained speeds, and the top speeds they claim have droppped significantly.
With so many people carrying GPS with recording facilities these days hopefully we'll start getting some really reliable performance figures. I just wish Alex' GPS had been recording the day we took Halo down Kielder water in 35knots. |
Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 08 May 07 at 11:49am
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Andy Simon and I thought we'd cracked 32 knots in the Daemon the other day. It felt INCREDIBLY quick, and it was blowing it's nuts off, and we were two "heavy winds optimised" sailors sailing a boat designed for Olympic girls. So in order to make sure it was not a spike, we screamed back uphill again, and popped the kite for a second run. We nudged the speed 0.5 of a knot higher. It felt just so goddam quick. We really had convinced ourselves we'd done it, until we realised that the GPS was set to km/h, not knots. We suddenly flet a bit daft as from convincing ourselves we'd done it, we realised hust how far of the mark we really were. 31 knots is stupidly fast. The Avon Seariders I drive with a 60hp outboard on the back will not do anything like 31 knots, 1 up, in flat water, with a clean hull and me fiddling about with the trim to the nth degree whilst hiding behind the binnacle to keep the drag down. It will manage low 20s. If you are chasing a quick boat at that speed it seems gobsmacking just how hard you seem to have to push the RIB to keep up. Don't get me wrong, 20knots is ber-luddy fast, I've done that in a Cherub and have the GPS track to prove it. To then be overtaken by something else doing 11 knots more just seems ridiculous!! Sorry!!! ------------- RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed" Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs" Enterprise GBR21970 Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra" |
Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 08 May 07 at 12:02pm
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Iain, believe me, or dont - im not that fussed. Its a personal record - I no longer have the speed track, but like I said - I want to beat it again! For that ill prob use the new velocitk jobby and get all the plots. When I did it the big 30ft ribs at weymouth were trying to chase me and the OD was watching in ore!! It felt fast, it felt SO fast I cant explain!! & I know even without looking at the GPS when sailing I havent ever gone that fast before in my life - nor have I come close to it since. & yes - it was in knots! But if you can get a windsurfer to do around 40 knots again and again, why cant a flat boat, sailed flat in dead flat water do it ------------- -12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites' -Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors. Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff |
Posted By: combat wombat
Date Posted: 08 May 07 at 1:41pm
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31 knots must be a spike. Open 60's occasionally get close to that (current Ecover record is around 32 knots). Only big cats and tri's will consistently record speeds in the 30's. Volvo 70's could spike speeds like that in the Southern Ocean but cannot reliably average it. Even ORMA 60's have to have water ballast, canting rigs and curved lifting foils to reliably reach the 30's. Dinghies aren't the best weapons for top speeds, they are too draggy and heavy to max out any records. It is incredibly difficult to reach over 20 (49ers rarely reach it) and beyond that it becomes exponentially harder to get quicker due to the law of diminishing returns and all that. ------------- B14 GBR 772 |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 08 May 07 at 2:16pm
Agreed; I can get plenty of plots around the 18 or 19 mark, faster than they gets difficult; Might see what I get this next week at the F16 Nations cup as it looks like it will be windy ! (but we are doing uphill/downhill only ! ) ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 May 07 at 10:42pm
| The best weapon for max speed in a dinghy was probably a 97 rules Cherub. The 2005 rigs IMHO are too big and too low aspect ratio for max speed. Round the track vmg is an entirely diferent affair with quite different requirements. |
Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 08 May 07 at 11:22pm
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Don't know about the fortrex and velocitek, but my pda based gps has a settable sample rate. Set to 10s intervals you get plenty lower speeds than when set to 1s intervals. Those speed records are averaged over quite long periods. (50knots over 500m = 0.27nm => 19.4s). I don't disbelieve Andy, just presume he didn't sustain it for very long (no inuendo intended, honest ------------- Javelin 558 Contender 2574 |
Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 09 May 07 at 2:17pm
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HI NickA - When the GPS was mounted on the boat on the odd look over it was reading a steady 28,29 odd knots - so the 31 was the max and most likely not a constant! But what was constant was the sheer F**kin speed!! Yes, the boat was a 97 rules twin wire beast! with a fairly flat kite & like Jim said, in general a 97 rules cherub was SO fast in the strong stuff, espec one designed for it!! ------------- -12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites' -Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors. Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff |
Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 09 May 07 at 2:46pm
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------------- http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/index.html - Lancing SC 
|
Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 09 May 07 at 2:54pm
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HAHA! Like I said dude, i really dont care if you dont believe me or not - next time it happens (I SOOO hope it does) Ill have the full gps track, and hopefully on video too! For the mean time - WOOO 12ft skiff sailing cant be beaten!! & mate, since being back in plymouth havent even capsized!! ------------- -12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites' -Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors. Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff |
must not be trying hard enough!!Posted By: aardvark_issues
Date Posted: 09 May 07 at 3:35pm
Why did you sell it then? Like going slower do you?  |
Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 09 May 07 at 3:58pm
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HAHA! Nah I sold it cuz frankly I was annoyed that until it was blowing its tits off the boat wasnt fast! & thats not very good for racing! ------------- -12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites' -Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors. Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff |
Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 09 May 07 at 4:07pm
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Lol, head cams in the post - will go out on windy days, and GPS tends to go out all the time (it doesnt weigh much!) ps - ur forgetting a buoyancy aid in the chek list, another rashie, gloves and boardies ------------- -12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites' -Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors. Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff |
Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 09 May 07 at 4:11pm
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Lol yer - kind thanks to my sponsors of Zeal Optics for that one ------------- -12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites' -Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors. Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff |
Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 09 May 07 at 6:16pm
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I wanted to stay away from this thread but could no longer resist, what a load of rubbish. I'm supprised TT hasnt posted anything as blunt as me before now! I'm sorry. ------------- |
Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 09 May 07 at 6:41pm
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Sorry Merlinboy - whats a load of rubbish? that a boat cant hit (if only for a second) 31 knots in 45knots of wind in an ideal boat on dead flat water?! Thats all im gona say now, well - till I manage a new speed record in the 12! ------------- -12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites' -Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors. Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff |
Posted By: BBSCFaithfull
Date Posted: 09 May 07 at 7:14pm
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It doesnt have to be a fecking great rib! our 4.8m 50hp safetyboat will do 33knots two up quite happily
------------- Greatfully Sponsored By www.allgoodfun.com Int 14 GBR 1503!! |
Posted By: combat wombat
Date Posted: 09 May 07 at 7:34pm
Again I'm going to chip in... it wasn't 45 knots of wind. The power of wind goes up exponentially as it increases, therefore the difference between 15 and 20 knots is not the same as the difference between 25 and 30 knots, and so on. 45 knots is not sailable in any dinghy full stop, not even Wayfarers and other heavy boats and certainly not in Cherub's, '97 rules or not. I have sailed in 45 knots of wind, offshore in a 40ft Catamaran. I will try my hardest never to have to do it again. ------------- B14 GBR 772 |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 09 May 07 at 7:43pm
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this wasnt offshore though, it was in weymouth harbour. much more sheltered. ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: combat wombat
Date Posted: 09 May 07 at 7:48pm
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I'm not thinking about the waves. The sheer power of the breeze is enough to destroy a boat. Plus, in 45 knots, there will be waves in Weymouth Harbour. Waves with spray kicking off the whitecaps that stings when it hits you and prevents you from keeping your eyes open. ------------- B14 GBR 772 |
Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 09 May 07 at 8:12pm
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Ok, one last comment - it was a 45 knot squall, so it came in. Prior to that was not so strong, and weymouth is always flat water - duno if youve ever sailed there. Its a gorgeous place to sail, personally my favourite in the UK! + we already the had the kite up when it hit, so all we had to do was run it out. Ive sailed in high winds, 35+ odd knots in plymouth sound only me and a very reefed open 60! very high winds on the solent to borrowed my dads vareo - pitchpoled it twice and bent the pole, another SMOD error in that silly little hoop for the pole! Im not saying big wind is a gentle strole in the park - its WINDY! and yes the spray hurts like FOOOOOOOK (but with wrap around glasses spray dont get in ur eyes)! But anyone whos met me will be able to tell you im a bit of an adrenaline junkie & Love the strong stuff with big waves!! If anyones the same - come to plymouth on a windy day and go out past the breakwater. Big swell, little boat. its fun!!! oh yer ps - my old boat was carbon/kevlar and actually bullet proof! During a mega pitchpole I swung round and hit the hull - Broken rib but no damage to the boat! So it could take a pounding! ------------- -12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites' -Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors. Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff |