I believe Julian has been looking at the possibility of a 39er. I feel it is important that there is a olympic double hander for light weights (having said that I would love an olympic single hander for light weight (men)! From a based perspective '9er racing always looks great to watch!

True, a 39er would be great, but I'm not sure how many people would really by it (at least in the UK).  It would be aimed at the same sort of people as the RS800, the only thing that would help is Olympic status and that would only be marginal as not everyone wants to sail an olympic class.  Then again having spent a while looking online I cant see much else it would have to contend with, and given how popular Olymip classes are around the world, maybe it could work well after all.  All it needs is someone brave enough to market it. 

One thought, given that both Men and Women already compete in the 470 at the Olympics, why not make it the mixed/open class and then have the 49er as the mens and something 3/49er-ish as a womens class. 

Yes, we need some more dinghy classes. There aren't quite enough are there?

On the opposite tack, I vaguely remember someone writing into Y&Y a few years back and suggesting that we needed to abolish crap classes that are past their sell by date, to try and "un-dilute" sailing in the UK and get fleet sizes up again. Predictably he was shot down in flames, mainly by sailors of said crap classes, but I reckon he was on to something.

First round of the great Crap Class Cull:

Foxer, Graduate, Heron, Pacer, Signet, Wineglass

...and that's being lenient.

But what do you mean by abolish??

Do you want the owners of these classes to surrender their boats (which they may have had for a long time).

Perhaps a better solution would be to get RS, laser, ovi, etc to go back to their earlier classes and re-market them.

Dingies could realy benifit from addopting a forumla designs like the cats have done........  F-14, F-16, F18, F-20.

Then manufactures can all chip in and produce their own design and race aginst other manufactures........

We do have International 12s, 14s and 18s !!!

Jon

Aren't the skiffs more a development class than a strick formula.  The 12s are a very open class.  Need tighter guide lines and minimum weights.

How about some formula boats that are not as racical in development and a bit easier on the hip pocket.

I've got some ideas here. I am thinking of calling the classes "National 12" and "Merlin Rocket". Think they will catch on?

Yes, not that many people actually want to own a homogenised lump of modern plastic with no class or style that is going to cost you an arm and a leg anyway. Sailing an uncomfortable soap dish doen't appeal to everyone believe it or not.

If you want to encourage development classes, it is far easier to construct one-off boats in wood. If you look at the Merlin Rocket, many are now made of plastic but the moulds come off successful (initially one-off) wooden hulls. One-off plastic construction is very expensive. That is one of the reasons one-off racing yacht construction is almost dead; the cost is 4-5 times that of a similarly sized production boat.

There are 90+ boats at Salcombe Merlin Week, year after year, as manufacturers one-designs come and go. Not everyone wants that kind of boat but there are plenty who do. 

Is that actually true? I think most UK clubs have been seeing falling memberships and turnouts for years. And competitive success has really come along with lottery funding.

I'm not certain the problem has anything to do with classes though. I think it is about demographics and "money rich/time poor" not fitting with clubs needs for volunteers to keep running.

What's wrong with a Graduate.  Smashing little boats, pleasant to sail, point nice and high, favourable handicap.  It's okay banging up and down in an RS400 but don't forget those of us who sail on smaller waters or rivers where a smaller, slower boat is ideal and a larger, faster boat just does not perform well.  The more I sail the more I believe that some of the newer classes are completely outperformed by more traditional designs.  So to the above list I would also add the Blaze, Topaz and the RS Vareo - the Velcro especially is totally hopeless waste of Polyester Resin.

The Vareo is a wierd thing - the rig looks horrible - they seem to have no kicker tension. At the 300/600/vareo inlands there were a lot of soggy looking leeches. However they do seem to go like stink offwind and had a lot of juniors getting involved.

Topaz can go in the bin, Blaze is now half decent but I can't see the point in it. If you want a heavyweight singlehander, go for a phantom or an RS300. Personally I went for the 300 on the grounds that its cheaper, lasts longer and is MUCH faster.

Graduates are okay but you may as well just stick people in an Enterprise instead - a tad more demanding but easy enough to sail and it's a cracking class to sail in.

However, rather than a class cull, I think what is needed is a more considered approach to open circuits; fewer meetings but bigger meetings. The RS association combined the 300's and 600's inlands with the Vareo's. Consequently there were 80 odd boats at an event instead of three events with 20, 20 and 40. Thus it's more profitable for the club, the social side is better and it looks like a healthier sport.

Then what about all the clubs close to each other , struggling to survive and often sailing on really nasty pieces of water. (e.g. Glossop and Pennine - within 7 miles of each other in the middle of nowhere) It would be of benefit to both clubs to consolidate their efforts.

.....

By the way,the idea of amalgamating two classes isn't new, just ask the Merlins and the Rockets, they did it a few decades ago!

I feel I have to defend the Graduate and I can't agree that you might as well sail an Enterprise - they are different. Both have a charm which gives pleasure.  Another boat I feel is underated is the Mirror - it has many qualities, which I haven't got space to amplify here.

My current boat is a Laser 4000 - different again!

Oh Dear !!

Got to defend the Blaze (and others) from the 'knockers' .... so when did YOU try one rather than just give a possibly biased opinion ...  I've sailed most of the singlehanders around today including Phantoms, 300's .... and even ones with a funny coloured sail upfront and a bit of string to hang off etc -  most are good boats that give good sailing/racing and are enjoyed by their owners.  But don't just knock what you might just see as an occasional rival to your favorite ''pop-out'' and maybe have not even raced yourself.  It does not expand the racing community one bit and with probably less than 5000 regular racers in all classes in the UK we should stop throwing stones at each other and be a little more proactive in attracting more into racing in the first place.  By all means promote your favorite, as I will mine, but knocking others does not necessarily strengthen your own class.

The 'symetrical multi-class' initiative started in the last year for a number of the symetrical 2-hander classes is surely an eaxmple of how to grow participation.  We have more in common than not .... So how about a Phantom / Blaze / 300 / OK / Finn / Solo  etc  version in 2005, say in September or October ?  (hiking singlehanders)  It would help us all.  Anyone interested ?

"The 'symetrical multi-class' initiative started in the last year for a number of the symetrical 2-hander classes is surely an eaxmple of how to grow participation."

Yes FastSail has done a fantastic job to get the classes cooperating at all levels, and especially at the Symmetric Grand Prix. 

Classes are having joint meetings and getting many people involved at all levels, making them an attractive proposition for clubs to host Open meeting and Nationals.

http://www.fastsail.org - http://www.fastsail.org

Yes - there are a lot of hiking singlehanders around.....  So then how about a maximum of 15 from each eligible class, handicap and/or pursuit format and results from the best 8 in each class to count towards a 'class' result as well as individuals result.  Now who's really up for it ?

mpl720

The suggestion of having a single-handers version or a non trapeze 2 man version of Fastsail makes a lot of sense as long as you are clear about what you are trying to achieve.

It’s true that since we founded Fastsail we have learnt one or two things.
Getting a Class committee to agree is one thing, getting a committee made up from seven Classes who in the past treated each other as sworn enemies is something altogether different.

However the Fastsail model works and is very much still working with more developments and more people buying into it, with the result that Classes are now seeing numbers increase in both boats on the circuit and new boats being built.

The Symmetric Grand Prix might provide a newsworthy press release or two but it’s all the other joint benefits that really make an impact on being a member of a joint Class initiative like Fastsail. Do not fall into the trap of thinking it’s just another event – Fastsail goes much deeper than that.

We are like minded people, sailing similar boats in similar places at a reasonable cost in a relaxed and enjoyable atmosphere, without a corporate money making machine that will drop you like a stone once your model becomes obsolete.

If you’re really interested in creating a joint Class initiative for your Class we’d be more than happy to help and advise so you can avoid some of the issues that we found over the last couple of years.

Go to the fastsail site http://www.fastsail.org - http://www.fastsail.org register and ask anyone who is there what we are about. There are usually several people on the site, in the shout box, who would be happy to help.

Or you can contact us: mailto:Mike@fastsail.org - Mike@fastsail.org or mailto:Cath@fastsail.org - Cath@fastsail.org

I agree wholeheartedly about the fastsail initiative adapted for hiking singlehanders.

I don't know what the open attendances are like for the blaze & phantom but it could certainly benefit all classes...

It would certainly be good for the Europe who currently do not have many events having just lost half a dozen events in 2005 now they will not be in the UK Olympic classes National Rankers (after this weekend).

Does that mean the Dart 15's could come and play too

Find like minded people, sailing similar boats, in similar places, at a reasonable cost, in a relaxed and enjoyable atmosphere and your there.

So just a couple of issues for you to iron out Scooby but you get the picture.

Not really. Chris was talking about OD sub-fleets within a development fleet. An MRX is not a Merlin Rocket. It just looks a bit like one.

The Merlin Rocket is thriving at the moment. There are more new boats being built than there have been for years. After a period of several years of tweaking the rig rules, they appear to be heading for a period of stability. Salcombe Merlin Week is consistently over-subscribed. Things are good. Why on earth would they go out of their way to help the MRX which was been developed and promoted as a Merlin replacement at one of the leading Merlin clubs?

The MRX is not a Merlin. It has a smooth bottom. Merlins have clinker bottoms, even the GRP ones. If the MRX had been designed to conform to Merlin rules, it could have competed as a sub-class in Merlin events. But it wasn't - it was intended as a Merlin replacement. It doesn't seem to have caught on.

The original 29er design was for a twin trapeeze mast head kite rig, essentially the same sail plan as is now on the 59er.  Bethwaite has no immediate plans to 'fill the gap' (as far as I know) but I think that it would be hard to fit such a boat in the training scheme.  By the time most kids have got the hang of the 29er they are very nearly old enough to jump straight into the 49er and many do without to much difficulty.  Because of this trying to squeeze another class in the gap will be very hard to do, if nothing else because of the added expence for crews (parents). 

IMHO if would be far better if the RYA convinced laser/topper/ldc to build the 405 properly and get that running again, it is the right boat to start in before the 29er, it was just never managed properly as a class. 

(also if you want a small twin trapeze boat get an old topper spice, they should be quite cheap if you can find one)

Yes, but given the reasonably small weight range of the 29er, you may not yet be tall enough / heavy enough for the high performance senior classes. If you are a girl, you are very unlikely ever to be the right physique to be competitive in classes like the 49er or I14.

It would be nice to have a performance class that girls / smaller blokes can sail competitively. It wouldn't need to be a youth class, in fact it would be better if it was a senior one.

Now, where did I leave that high-performance twin-wire boat I was sailing this weekend with an all-up crew weight of 130Kg?  

has anyone else noticed this with topper

i know the balls-ed up the marketing of the hurricane 59 

i belive the boss, Iso, Spice, Buzz, sport 14, even the byte to all be great designs if better than the laser and RS ones just badly marketed. even the topper build quality is better  (well white forumula who make them for topper)

has anyone else sailed the very rare sport 16 keel WOW wot a boat is such a pleasure to sail and very very quick for its size!!!

Hold on a minute - how about making it about 2 feet longer, with orangey sails and calling it a 29er...oh, but you need to add the extra wire these days, shouldn't be too hard...

The Iso was marketed exceptionaly well to the extent that instead of having a start for Asymetric handicap classes many events had starts for Isometric boats.

I have sailed the sport 16 and thought it probably the worst boat I have ever sailed it even made the sport 14 look good. Horrible to sail in and even worse to teach in and near imposable to right from a capsize

Gael quoted a collegue 'if they choose the Snipe I think I need to find a
new sport!'  (yes I know it was a long time ago but I've only just read all your contributions)

It all depends what you mean by the sport of dinghy racing. Our sport is not only about careering round a race course in only partial control of a very expensive unstable and fragile piece of high tech plastic. Tactics, finesse, close contact with other boats, big fleets, attractive events - these are also an integral part of sailing

 If you except the Olympic classes and the official ISAF feeder "yoof" classes the Snipe is still one of the fastest growing fleets world-wide. I believe it is the one-design class sailed in the most countries with big fleets in South America (including Cuba) and Japan. It is the dinghy class used for the Pan American games. . It provides extremly close tactical fleet racing for a wide range of weights, ages and abilities. It is a truly mixed fleet.This is despite (or maybe because of) the hull being a 1931 design, and closer to an ultra-light keel boat than a lightweight planing machine.

The Snipe is probably one of the cheapest boats providing truly international racing. I sailed a Snipe for a couple of years, based at a small club in Paris . During that time members of the club competed in the UK, France, Italy, Spain, Belguim, Holland, Norway, Poland, Russia and the USA. Every year we had an open event on our "duckpond" with competitors from Belgium, Switzerland and the UK (30 boats on a lake 800m x 100m was fun). Not bad for a fleet of only 10 boats.

Unfortunately the class never really developed in the UK (although Ted Heath's first boat was a Snipe) and the excellent British Snipistes do not seem to travel as much as they could. There is still a fleet in the Orkneys (a relic from the US Navy in WWII I believe) - a good place for a championship perhaps.

In a wider perspective it is astonishing how older classes still provide fantastic sailing - look at the "pre-war" classes still attracting the world's best sailors -Dragon, Star, International 14 (no insult intended but some of the class rules have not changed from the initial format). It is the quality of the racing, the quality of the organisation, the quality of the competitors, allied to the gradual modernisation of a well designed hull and rig that ensure the future of these classes. I am not sure that the "manufacturers" classes wll be as long-lived.

Gordon

In general terms I agree with everything you say Gordon.  Well put.  What do you sail these days?

Not at all. Nothing to do with being slow. Some of the most successful boats in the UK are really slow. My point was to do with the classes which have ceased to be viable in any meaningful way in what is a very competitive marketplace. The Y&Y racing classes review reveals a good number of classes which saw zero new boats being built in 2004, and only a handful of boats at their nationals, and no other obvious saving grace. I would include the Boss, ISO and the Laser "tonner" boats in this category.

All classes will have a limited lifespan, and it seems some of these classes are in the Autumn of theirs in terms of supporting a racing fleet. Now, I have no problem whatsoever with beginners being taught to sail in any boat under the sun or cruisers doing likewise, I just question the handful of enthusiasts who typically seem to keep these classes racing for ten or twenty years after their sell-by date, stubbornly resisting the inevitable.

Really good point. I was thinking along the "fewer classes, more concentration, higher numbers" route which seems so logical at first, but as you rightly point out, the UK has the highest number of classes, and also the highest number of dinghy sailors. Sadly, I suspect this is down to the "small pond" mentality, where if we have enough small classes, then everyone can be a "big fish" to a certain extent. Not everyone wants to test themselves in a competitive arena.

Old classes do die though; it's the way of the world. I bet not many sailors today remember classes like the "Eleven-plus". I bet even fewer are sorry to see them go. There are many old classes which made a small contribution to dinghy sailing history but ultimately failed to survive. Darwin in action!

In other words I crew when I can find a boat that will accept the weight, and when I'm not sailing I do some Race Committee work and judging.

......Maybe Stars will last as long as the hammer throw; they're similar in efficiency

What does efficiency mean when we are talking about boats that are used for pleasure... the most efficient classes would be those that give the most pleasure to the greatest number for the least effort ! In which case the Star... along with many pre World War (One in the case of the Star) are remarkably efficient

I cannot help feeling that many of the major classic classes will still be with us long after the *9ers, the RS *00s and such like are long gone. Owner (and crew) driven development seem to be the best guarantee of longeivity. Classes can be modern without being new, even on the one design classes - just how old is the 505 for instance.

Gordon

I think you could be right. Extreme boats aren't just ones that go fast or fall over a lot though - sometimes they are boats that fit extreme restrictions.

I've recently moved from the South Coast to the North East. I decided that I would do exactly what we are always telling everyone and sail what was popular locally so I sold the Contender before I moved. When I started looking seriously at my options there weren't many because of my (admittedly self-imposed) restictions: I'm 15 stone+, I want a single-handed dinghy, I only have 2k to spend and I only want to travel 1 hour max from home. Well in the end I bought another Contender but I'd still consider another solution - even if I do love my Contender it feels a bit unwieldy on a pond.

So the point I'm making is that by having so many classes, we have a boat that 'fits' more people, so there is more people in the sport. If I could only sail a Laser for the rest of my life I wouldn't sail at all - I'd go and buy a Motorbike!

I always believed that having 'adopted classes' at a club was a great idea but I was 5'11", 12 stone and fit at the time and now I'm not... actually I'm still 5'11"! One prospective club, a large reservoir within my distance restriction and perfect for a Contender (in fact it used to be on the TT), has the following adopted classes for singlehanders: Laser, Topper, Optimist or 'Performance' (fast assy boats). I didn't join!

We sort of have a grading system.  I used to sail a Laser and to reach the top in that class is one hell of an achievement.  Being quite able, I could switch to a class of modest performance and numbers and win many opens.  I've actually chosen to sail a more demanding class (as far as boat handling is concerned) which is also faster and more exciting.  Its so demanding I rarely get in the prizes even at club level, but its so much more fun than a Laser.

What I'm trying to say is we have a grading system based on 2 factors.  Factor 1, level of competition.  Factor 2, difficulty of handling.

If people are still sailing a class and interested enough in it to keep the class organisation going what right does anyone have to tell them that they must stop as their class is to be abolished?

If a class is unapealing for some reason and the numbers fall then the lack of good racing would make it even more unapealing and numbers would fall further and the class would eventualy die. That is not a problem if the boat is truely bad or just a not quite so good duplicate of another class.

The real shame would be if a class that was nearly good enough to survive did not because the sailors in the class failed to have the vision to make the changes nessicary to get the boat right and ensure survival.

Ok I slipped in the 4000 because I sail one, although a few years ago it would have qualified.  As for the 400, that really is a special boat, its much faster than a Merlin and indeed is much faster than many a "high performance" trapeze boat of a few yeears ago.

Not really sure about the 400 being much faster than the Merlin, on a reach granted but the merlin is much faster upwind, and has the added advantage that it can also sail dead downwind.

If anything I would say the modern Merlin is a much more specialised boat than the 400.

I am sure the Merlin will be being sailed well after the 400 has been replaced by something else.

It is funny how many 400 sailors come to the merlin stand at the dinghy show and drool over our carbon rigs, raking systems and lets face it beautiful boats.

Long live the 12, the  Merlin and all development boats. And before you go down the cheque book route you can buy a year or two old merlin fully carboned up that is perfectly good enough to win the champs for less than the price of a new 400.

"I guess the inspiration for canting rigs on dinghies (and the ORMA 60s) also comes from this source?"

Yes in a way. Windsurfers try to keep the rig as upright as possible to get maximum power out of it. The common misconception that the rig of a windsurfer helps lift the board out of the water, thus reducing the displacement and therefore helping it go faster is pretty wrong. The idea of a canting rig on a dinghy/tri is to keep the rig upright when the boat is heeled, thus giving more power to drive the boat forward than if the rig heeled with the boat.

But the point of the RS400 is that it's a productionised version of a Merlin, with everything softened to appeal to a greater number of sailors and remove the specialisation. Sure 400 sailors will come and look at merlins in the same way people look at sports cars, but in the real world most people want a Mondeo/Astra/Passat not a GT40/Elise. You can pick up sports/muscle cars that are a few years old cheaper than a new Passat but that just proves they depreciate faster.

It would be a sad development class if it didn't evolve to be better than a production class given time.

Merlins and RS400s are both great (I've sailed both) but you can't compare them like for like. Our mythical 'Top Trumps' game might have headings like 'Hours of Maintenance required' and 'Choice of builders/suppliers'!

Both approches to dinghy design are valid and vital. The development classes drive innovation and the production classes soak up new ideas and package them in a way the greatest number of people can use them. I don't see why this argument keeps cropping up, it isn't winnable for either side!

Well said.

You sound like a man with his head well and truly screwed on.

"Both approches to dinghy design are valid and vital" concise and too the point I think you have hit the nail quite squarely on the head!

I have to agree but the point needed airing.  Now to just cloud the water there are some boats which lie somewhere in between.  The Scorpion (and many of these older boats) allow some development in rigs and internal layout plus you can play with the hull shape within tolerances.  This suits wooden boats well.  I sail a strict one design because having "developed" 2 Scorpions in the past I found I could no longer spend the time and the money.  Glass fibre boats do not allow any change in hull shape (unless you change it completely) and its also very difficult to move the fittings around.  You have to admit that glass fibre boats are easier to maintain - hence the popularity of strict one designs.  On the other hand strict one designs do go out of fashion quickly if they are at the high performance end of the spectrum (as has already been pointed out).

We all have to make choices according to our circumstances at the time.  Let's face it we all partake in one of the most interesting sports and we should support each other and learn from each other.

I guess in part the OD is seen as a common and a lot of those that sail OD's aspire to sail dev classes or at least see the attraction but if you've made the decision to sail dev classes with the added cost and constant updating (contentious? - probably. Accurate? - mostly in my experience) then it's easy to look down on OD sailors and they may even need to justify (to themselves and each other) the route they have taken. I think there is polarisation in both OD and Dev classes though.

I agree that there is 'a third way'  - the classes whos rules are fixed but allow gradual improvement - I sail one. We have allowed Carbon spars recently and changed the boom dimensions both changes to allow for better supply of these parts and to make the boats nicer to sail rather than give hugely improved performance.

I used to sail in Lasers and Laser II's and I used to get extermely annoyed by small things on the boats that could be so much better if improved, and even although I now sail a development class boat where the cockpit is designed around me and how I want to sail. however I still remember how irritated I used to be by small things which if alowed to be changed could improve the boats. and I think this feeds back into a lot of my opinions about One Designs.

I

 Well said. That really made me laugh!

Originally posted by DiscoBall Originally posted by Matt Jackson the classes whos rules are fixed but allow gradual improvement - I sail one. Originally posted by Matt Jackson We have allowed Carbon spars recently And so dis-enfrachised those of your fleet who have older boats (by dint of the fact that the carbon rig is worth more that their whole boat and provides a significant performance boost especially to a type of boat that's really aimed at lumpy sea sailing)... And you had to change the rules to allow the carbon rigs? No?  Or have you only just realised you could use them within your present rules, a little slow on the uptake then..?

Blah, blah, blah!

I think maybe you should talk about things you have some knowledge about. We had to change the rules to allow a larger boom section which was a prerequisite to using carbon sections and we had to (progressively) reduce the mast weight to make it possible to use Carbon masts.

The biggest driver for allowing Carbon masts was that the fleet standard (in the UK and most of europe) mast was not going to be available any more in alloy and as the fleet standard sail was designed to fit it Carbon was a sensible approach VOTED FOR BY THE FLEET.

Is this the same dis-infranchised fleet which saw it's biggest ever turnout at a world champs and has had a steady 50+ turnout at it's nationals for the last seven years? 

Well said Matt

I was considering my response to that posting.

I had an alloy mast on my old Contender (which is for sale if anyone is interested) and I did not feel dis-enfrachised.

And there are plenty of alloy masts still attending open meetings, nationals, worlds etc.

Originally posted by DiscoBall But if somebody who owned a car they only used for fun in their leisure time and they told you it was a Mondeo you'd think they were not quite right in the head...

So by that analogy Dev classes are only for second boats are they? Only going out on a Sunday... if the weather is nice

Sorry... I thought you just wrote 200 for a new National 12? What?

Originally posted by DiscoBall ...run as a money making concern and damn the effects on the sport (i.e releasing competing classes almost every year...)

You just said it 'a money making concern' - any idea what it costs to develop a new product (any product)? The only way to make money at it is to get it right and build boats people want - if people want them what's the beef? Name a manufacturer who put's out a new design almost every year. There may be a series of boats launched in succession but no manufacturer designs a new boat and get it to maket every year.

I don't sail a SMOD or even a OD but I can see the need for them. You seem to be confirming the impression people have about Dev sailors attitude.

I think its good that thereis choice for ppl who like both aspects.Personally I really like the man on man, not design on design aspect of singlehanded OD. But i can see the added fun of developing your boat and making adjustments to make it faster- which in my opinion is a different aspect of sailing skill in those particualar classes, as is fitness in hicking ODs esp.

Sorry if the discussion has evolved past this level!

Yeah the nice thing about Laser racing is the close boat on boat combat.  I guess the Topper is much the same.  For a season or 2 at Bough Beech we had 5 or 6 of us who could all win and we often had races where half a boat length was the winning margin and during the race 2 or 3 had been in the lead. 

However after racing we'd all head for the shore.  Now I sail a much faster boat as do some of the other Laser sailors from the past - and after racing what do we do, go for a blast?

Discoball

I'm not sure what i'll sail next. This season it'll be toppers mainly, but there will be some club level racing in the n12, also trying out otther 2 handed boats . After that I'll see if i'm heavy enough and if i have a crew/helm, then parellel sail that with a topper to the topper worlds in the summer, then sail my new class mostly.

I think the radial would be the most natural progression, but i may not be heavy enough as i'm just over 8 stone now, but i'm willing to be more open minded, see if i get swayed by any of the boats i sail inthe next year.

Originally posted by DiscoBall Well done Matt, you've managed to take a good discussion and turn it ito a personal attack, very mature.  I apologise for my somewhat acidic sense of humour, however your reponse to my contender question was predictable and you might want to examine your own generalisations from an earlier posts.   It would seem that while I don't have any great love for the manufacturers, you seem to dislike other sailors...  I won't dignify the rest of your posts with any further response, suffice to say that by 200 I meant RS200, sorry if the reference was a little too complex Mr Contender  It's good that your class has managed the change to carbon spars well and that you still feel competitive with older kit. However there are 'third way' classes that have definite performance differences in their fleet due to upgrades, Westerly built J24s come to mind, having their seperate prizes at events due to being viewed as disadvantaged against the newer boats. Chris I see what you're getting at but surely whatever you sail you use the first three skills (for comparable boats the handling is usually harder in the dev design than the OD?)?  I kind of meant something bigger by it, kind of a general outlook that dev sailors have compared to those who buy SMODs, but I won't go any deeper down that road as its rather too big a subject to cover here! T

Nothing personal, sorry you took it that way.

RE: Weight in a Laser.

There is a young lad at our club who sails a Laser, he has gone from a Topper pretty much straight in to a full rig. He handles it pretty well considering he cannot be much more than 9 stone. He does struggle upwind somewhat though when it gets breezy, but then again he can switch down to a Radial.

As for the close boat on boat action I have found that I cannot beat being in the Laser fleet. We to have some very close racing at the front of the fleet with several people being capable of winning races.

Paul