And it kicks ass.

First time EVER in the water for the boat, guess the length of bits of string and rig settings...

20.7 knots downwind!!!!!

And that was with just a standard rudder, no T-foil.  This boat is going to be really, really fast...

Well be gentle with her, she has important business to do

20.7 - Wow Impressive

Well, I had squeezed 20.5 knots out of Suicide Blonde the previous day but that was in a lot more wind.  I think it was only blowing at 14-15 knots when we cracked the 20 in the Daemon, but it just felt so much better in the Daemon.

Not sure what your Bistro weighed Jim but what struck me about the Daemon was the acceleration, it was mid-boggling.  My Cherub is not slow but this thing just took off like a scalded cat.

Spectators said it was going lower and faster than a 49er, and for the first time out it is a highly impressive speed!

I think I read in a previous thread that the Daemon is going to be out and about at the blast in a couple of weeks time.

Is this still the plan?

I will have to come down for a look then

where is she based? are there many other quick boats there to gauge her against.

20.7 knots EEEKKK!!!!

Ginger she shoould be at the Blast weekend, see you there!

Mike, she's at Draycote, plenty of other quick things there to gauge her against.  That 20.7kts was literally on the first hoist, trust me, she flies!  I have no idea how she was going against other boats as to be honest I was totally concentrating on trying to keep her the right way up, but spectators say she was going at least the same speed as a 49er downwind but noticeably lower.  There's a picture somewhere but no video...

Yep!

So... all you hydrodynamicists and other boat building experts..  WHY is it so fast?

Standard Cherub rig?  Not carbon or particularly light.  Built down to a sensible budget.  But goes like stink.  Hull shape then?  What do Hartley Laminates know that others missed?

.. and what's it like to sail; apart from extremely quick?

Ok then to answer a few points.

Garmin Speed Freaks is not running yet for 2007 but when it does I will send it in, along with the track from my own boat.

Granite is right, there are some very large differences in the hull shape as a result of a rule change in 1997 which does speed things up a bit.  In addition the unconverted bit of the hull of my own boat is actually 18 years old now, and actually weighs about 65kg rather than 50kg.  This is all extra bracing and the racks for the big rig and twin wires, something that it was never designed to cope with back in 1989, however in this case the extra speed is worth the weight.  And of course it has got heavier as it got older, and it’s glass and Kevlar, not carbon.  In addition, where the Daemon has been designed from the ground up, my boat has basically been put together from scrap (racks/stump/bowsprit are RS800 masts, mast is a modified RS600 item fished out of the lake when the tide went out one dry summer!).  However the sails are bespoke and fit the boat very well, although due to the mast position the area is biased more towards the main than I would like.  The RS800 kite, although second hand, does fit the boat extremely well (check my avatar) although a longer pole would be nice, however this is impossible on my hull.  Steve Irish has sailed the boat in an open (and won) and he says the rig is about spot on. 

The Daemon will be VERY fast, especially with the T foil, but even old Cherubs are hardly slow.  Last Saturday I was sailing my boat, and Tom and I recorded a GPS’d 20.5 knots downwind, with consistent 8-9 knots upwind with occasional speeds of 11 knots plus (although this was sailing free for speed, under race conditions we’d probably sacrifice some speed for a few degrees).  That is out of an 18 year old 11’9” homemade boat (I have no idea why it’s not 12’ long as it should be!) that was updated on a tight budget using boatpark surplus…you can not get more bang for your buck.

I’m going to draw on car analogies to describe the differences between the boats.  My boat is a Range Rover Sport, the Daemon is a Catherham 7 Superlight.  Both will do about 140mph, however the Caterham will be long gone before the RR is even thinking about getting up to speed, and on a racetrack this makes a massive difference.  Every tiny little steering input on the 7 is rewarded by an instant and pin sharp response.  Get it wrong in the 7 and a little steering input will save you from what seems like certain doom, where the RR will be swapping ends in a load of tyresmoke no matter what you do.  It’s literally just like that with the boats.

Continuing the car analogies (it’s good is this Marston’s Firestoker!) the Daemon rig has power, mine has torque.  The Daemon rig is far less roachy than my own, I was trapezing off the gunwale during some gusts that I know I would have been flat wiring in my boat.  This made it much more responsive to gusts ( a good thing!) and with a nice long pole it just felt effortless going really fast, but upwind I was in/out/up/down much more than on my boat.  The Daemon was also MUCH easier to tack (the big roach on my main just stuff you straight back into the tack if the crew powers the main up too soon after the tack, just totally overwhelms the rudder) and in theory gybe although we did not do much of this.  This should suit the lighter weight range much better…Simon and I are probably about 160kg between us and much heavier than the target range, however with my roachy rig you can just grunt the main right in upwind and twin most of the time.

Anyway, that’s that. I’ll try and find some pix to post too.

Thanks for the interest,

Iain

Daemon sailing:

http://www.youtube.com/v/B7yFUPRBLk8 - http://www.youtube.com/v/B7yFUPRBLk8

FLY CHERB

http://www.uk-cherub.org - www.uk-cherub.org

If you went for the more literal "Chubby Baby" logo it might more accurately represent the average age of the crew.

I've watched it three times and the vid looks speeded up to me - hard to tell because it's very jerky, but look at the speed of the guys' hands and heads.

Strange, but the boat doesn't look as short as 12 ft (which is good ).

Anyone know what the average windspeed was?

it does look fast.  but i didnt think that the hartly laminates boat was white. 

also that main looks very odd

I managed to get my hands on some quicktime files which are alot better quality. Seems to be running at the same speed without the glitches with the hands and heads you spotted. Probably the compression.

Does look very nice

I dont believe it is the Hartley boat. It looks like the Aardvark one.

It's not speeded up...trust me!

That's the Aardvark boat, the one that was on the Cherub stand at Sailboat.  I'll pull the weather data off teh club website, but I guess it was probably about 14-15 knots on average.

Took the boat out on Saturday at Draycote, Simon Roberts on the stick and Cherub newby Dave in the front.  It was a shifty 15-16 knots breeze and this run topped out at 21.6 knots.  Again no T foil fitted, that comes next weekend, so we still have lots more to go. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6fMC1T8MSM - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6fMC1T8MSM

For any doubters, the footage is not speeded up in any way, the boat really does take off that quickly.  There will be a large gathering of Cherubs at Draycote next weekend if people are interested to see it and other Cherubs first hand.  For the record, this boat was built at Aardvark.  Both boats will be at Draycote for next weekend time scales permitting. 

Awesome video. 

Never fails to amaze me how fast it can go wrong though

That's the 'pleasure' of a short hull, and when you think you could simply add another metre to the waterline for very few kilograms... But if they enjoy it...

The boats actually very forgiving, in that it gave you a warning that it was about to piss you in!

My method of recovery, as a helm, is just to head up a couple of degrees. I find the extra power in the kite gives you a bit of lift. And healing the Bistro helps pop the nose up. Other than that, just get the weight back and repeat after me:

"Our father who art in heaven..."

Originally posted by Medway ManiacThat's the 'pleasure' of a short hull, and when you think you could simply add another metre to the waterline for very few kilograms... But if they enjoy it... [/QUOTE What happens is that you put a few feet on the hull, a few feet on the rig, and then the boat feels too short again.   A Cherub/12' skiff looks and/or feels a bit too short at times.  An I14 feels

What happens is that you put a few feet on the hull, a few feet on the rig, and then the boat feels too short again.   A Cherub/12' skiff looks and/or feels a bit too short at times.  An I14 feels a bit too short at times.  An 18 footer feels a bit too short at times.  Etc.!

Mike

there's possibly a scaling factor in here somewhere? (and it's possibly a power 2 relationship)

"Maniac's Rule" the speed things go wrong factor = 1 / waterline length squared

i heard early comment in Y&Y that the 29erXX is trickier to sail than the 49er

I dont think I would do the first bit keeping the boat flat lets you punch through the waves, as long as you have a good foot hold you are usualy OK. It works on a skinny boat but fat bowed boat will probably just stop.)

With a bit of heel on when the bow goes down the leeward chine digs in spining the boat into wind and you get a corkscrew pitchpole that is definatly not recoverable.

As for the last bit I find Neptune to be better

Who said anything about adding to the rig?

My proposition is that you add a metre to the Cherub waterline length at a cost of 5kg or so, and end up with a much more friendly boat for average people.

I fully accept that Cherub sailors prefer to pitchpole, and that if you want televisual action and a testing boat for the Olympics then you want something difficult - I enjoy watching the 49er crashes as much as anyone. So good luck to them and to the Daemon.

But I feel there are already a bunch of boats out there that are simply too difficult for the average sailor to master (that's how I can occasionally beat club sailors in 800's with my V3000) and there's room for easier boats. The popularity of the 2000, despite its high cost, points to that, I'd suggest.

If you re-read my post, you'll see that my point is that there are presently more boats for above-average sailors than for the average.

I should probably have qualified that by saying 'asymmetric boats'. The Fireball and 505 are excellent boats for average sailors if you want a symmetric kite (and have a good crew accordingly), but most fast asymmetrics - 49er, 29er, B14, 800, Cherub - are appreciably less easy for the average sailor to fully exploit.

I did

If you added a metre to Cherub then it would seem somewhat undercanvassed in lighter breezes, and the rig would look stumpy.  So the rig gets bigger and you're back to where you started.  I referred to the other boats as evidence, I know from sailing them that you often hear people say 'if only we could add another foot on', and you hear that whether the boat is 12, 14, 16 or 18 feet long.  Not trying to start a row,  it's just something that I've experienced.

Mike

So are you saying that the 14 developed from the Cherub and the 18 from the 14, surely not?

I doubt that adding a metre to a Cherub would reduce the average sub-planing performance - maybe in a real drifter, but as soon as any waves appear that added length would pay off.

But my aim wasn't to add speed, just sailability. We want people out there sailing every week, not staying judiciously on the shore, and that's what I'm starting to see now average sailors are trying the 800 and MPS.

As for looking stumpy, most boats have considerably less sail area for their length than a Cherub and don't in my view look stumpy. But that's just aesthetics, and people get used to whatever is current. To judge by sales figures, a lot of people think the Vago looks nice (for goodness sake)

keep em short gets my vote , more fun to watch diving about off wind when windy .

Am I right or rang , but this daemin boat yur all wetting yur breeks over , is it not meant for gurlies ??? and if this "super soouped up Cherub " is designed for the fairer sex (more on the watter I say) , what have you bouys been building ??? 

6 foot skiffs ???

ps zooming out can give impression of speed to something not even moving

If the Deamon was selected what would happen to the existing boats as the focus would fall onto the new boat ?

I guess we'll never know as I suspect this is a done deal and the 29'r XX will get in.............you should have gone for a 6 footer.

I believe the Daemon as tested is without the T-foil rudder. This development somewhat overcomes some of the problems as seen with a short boat.

Bang on the money as usual jim.  The daemon gig only comes off if it gets selected, It then becomes a one design for Olympics.  It still qualifies as a cherub but no self respecting Olypmic team would race in the Cherub fleet. 

This basicaly retains the Cherubs development status and fleet racing and also gives a perfect home for all those cast off parts to make crazy fun boats without rules and regs getting in the way.

As mentioned, the T foil wil prevent some of the down wind pitching but either way it is a fun boat to sail and to those who would suggest extra water line length, well that just removes the safty net of a class for spares to drop into and also defeats the purpose of designing inside rules.  While you're at it we might as well fit a mini bar, air con and some comfy chairs...made in carbon, naturally.

A performance assymetric trapeze Flying Fifteen

I don't see that I suggested that in any way, no   At the risk of repeating myself, what I have seen is that irrespective of long the boat is it's a common perception that adding a bit to the back will make it better.

Mike

Sorry Mike, just the impression I gained from your earlier posting quoted above.

imho all the classes you quote are deliberately overcanvassed for their length which results in a tricky boat to sail in waves downwind. I don't dispute that their sailors enjoy such characteristics, just find it difficult to understand why (people would want to make life difficult for themselves when they could go at least as quick or quicker, easier with some more waterline length). Hence

Hence why SMODS don't have weird snout arrangements.

Whether it's worth it depends how much swimming you're prepared to do to get that sensation. Can't imagine it's much fun watching Fireballs literally having a ball while you're swimming or still worse on a lee-shore, as I observed of the 12ft Skiffs at the Grafham GP, and it wasn't all that windy or wavy.

But I'm just being argumentative now. I'd be as sorry as most if Cherubs and 12's were to disappear; the more variety in the boats we sail, the better.

I guess it just bugs me a little when there's a suggestion that just sailing a particular class makes your balls bigger (when the effect of immersion in cold water is surely the opposite . Shouldn't have said that, I see an anatomical argument coming on...)

nothing gives the impression of speed like a very small boat with too much sail...

head first down hill on a skate board feels fast

sod skate boards, power kites and rollerblades are the way to go

actually downhill on a roadbike overtaking cars is pretty fun too.

untill you get to the roundabout at the bottom with the lorry on it.

new video on youtube from Draycote on Friday, 10-12 knots of wind and going nicely.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iiNDFKUB-U - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iiNDFKUB-U  

enjoy

Looking very good.

Nice to see the amount of work going into the prep and set up of these boats

Except, so far as I can tell, that test was in about 15knots - above average windstrength.

A test in 5knots, equally below average, would have shown a quite different picture, I imagine.

A comparative test in an average 10knots would be very interesting, and probably best explain the difference in PY's, with the Cherub likely showing bursts of speed equal or greater than the XX, but going nowhere at other times when it couldn't stay on the plane.

Upwind, in the lulls? Round our way they'd be down around 6knots, and once you've dropped off the plane you've got to get back on it.

I suspect there won't be too much women's olympic sailing in the Medway!

I should have known I'd be outnumbered on this thread

But you clearly haven't heard about Wilsonian's bid to host the Olympics!

Whatever, it would be nice to see how two up-to-date Cherubs perform in the two-of-a-kind we're running in tandem with the Wilsonian Grand Prix on 1st July this year.

btw, did the class go to the RYA on the handicap question when they added more rig, T-foil and a further trapeze, or are they just relying on returns to bring the number down? (Don't worry, we won't lower it for the GP )

Nothing to do with being outnumbered. You're just wrong.

Fighting talk! See you on 1st July, then.

Watching that video tells me something different. It often looks underpowered, and the bow seems to keep popping out constantly, in what looks to be very flat water, why? no need for it.

And as earlier mentioned, the boat may have bursts of speed around the track, looks quick downwind! but again looking at the video, it looks awfully slow around the corners.

The bow popping up and down might be just due to the length of the boat and being susceptible to slight pitching movement in very moderate sea states. I'm not making any judgements based on videos, as videos can be very misleading, watch a Tornado in moderate wind conditions on YouTube, it doesn't look too quick but it is pretty quick if you focus on the background. I'm quite impressed by the Daemon and what I've seen build-wise of the GT60 so far and reckon that the selections in April are going to be very interesting.

http://pixelviews.co.uk/DAEMON/index.html - http://pixelviews.co.uk/DAEMON/index.html

Looking at the rig, I'm asking myself if the boat might be a little more stable if the mast foot was a little further aft, or perhaps the mast more raked - in the style of the original Bieker Int 14 imports of about 10yrs ago?

Thus more lift from the kite = more stable ride.  That added to the t-foil, would probably stabilise the whole thing pretty well downwind.

As with most designs of this kind, one imagines that the problem isn't generating the power, it appears to be controlling it when it gets hairy.