Classes getting it right...
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2739
Printed Date: 18 Aug 25 at 2:48pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Classes getting it right...
Posted By: JimC
Subject: Classes getting it right...
Date Posted: 03 Mar 07 at 1:05am
|
Follow up to my classes in trouble list, again using the extraordinary blunt implement of Y&Y Championship turnouts to indicate health, this is my list of classes who are growing turnouts wise...
What I've done is compare the average turnout according to the chart from 1998 to 2002 with the average turnout from 2004 through to 2006. I dropped classes which are new or had several missing years to stuff up the numbers. Solo 23% Lark 27% Cherub 29% Firefly 32% Mirror 33% RS200 38% Splash 54% LaserRadial 61% Laser4.7 61% Topper 63% Streaker 85% Phantom 90% Blaze 216% Tornado 254% Well, how about the Tornado eh? Fastest growing Championships in the country...that one was a suprise. Actually I left cats out of the other list, but that number for the big T was worth noting. Its about the only case I've ever seen where a big performance upgrade has upped popularity... The Cherub position is a bit spurious, the class was having a run of unpopular Champs late 90s. The current numbers are encouraging but not as big a jump as it looks... The RS200 is also a bit misleading as it includes the class kick off. But basically the growing boats are singlehanders, and mostly singlehanders I wouldn't be seen dead in! Did someone in he other thread suggest that the Solo wasn't doing well? He was wrong!! |
Replies:
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 03 Mar 07 at 7:17am
|
Jim, why drop the new classes, if you wish to comment on growth they are the key areas ... ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Mar 07 at 9:28am
Because in my opinion it doesn't give useful figures for this particular exercise. A class that had 10 boats at its first champs and has topped out at twenty five thereafter looks great on his particular comparison if its first champs were 2002, but mediocre if its first champs were 1998. And no, I don't see any particular evidence to suggest that new classes are the key area for growth of the sport. There is some suggestion that you get a flavour of the month effect with some sailors moving from currently fashionable boats the next - say I14 - L4000 - RS800 - Musto skiff over the last fifteen years, but if you look at YYs table there are only two classes in the top 25 that weren't holding Champs in 1998... And what's more the two new classes that are in the list are youth classes. It pains me to say it, but the boats I like and like to sail are in participation terms almost completely irrelevant to the total participation in the sport. |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 03 Mar 07 at 11:03am
|
THing is Jim, some new classes like the F16 are having a bit of an explosion at the moment. The T figs are fantastric, bet the F16 will be similar Also, what about the F18 were there has been massive growth and now they have limits of Champs numbers ? ------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 03 Mar 07 at 5:01pm
| has the Tornado pulled saiors from (arguably derivative) classes such as the H5.9? - the big performance boost of the current tornado worth the hassle of being 'overwidth' for towing now? |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 03 Mar 07 at 6:32pm
|
Simon, the F18s have only got fleet limits on international regattas don't they? According to the Y & Y attendance table, the F18 has grown from 36 boats in 1998, to 38 boats in 2006. The average is 36. So F16s* and F18s contribute about 50+ of the 5,000 boats that do Nationals in the UK. The Topper alone has grown at three times the rate of the F18 AND F16! The Sprint 15 is arguably growing faster than the F cats. Sure Formula cats are great, but surely the fact that they are just 1% of the sport and growing much slower than some other classes indicates that they are not a key area of growth. The success of the T, Blaze, Radial and 4.7 may perhaps show how much better it is to revive a class by gear that can be retro-fitted to existing hulls, rather than introducing changes that make old hulls uncompetitive. I've only sailed the modern T a couple of days, but it really fits the kite well and was an outstanding candidate; other classes don't do so well. * Not counting the Spitfire and its average 20 boat fleet. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 04 Mar 07 at 4:48pm
|
Good to see the Blaze on there with a large growth. For information I was chatting to the new builder yesterday and he has already sold the first batch of new boats and is considering having to do a second run. Add to that the fact that you cannot get a secondhand one easily (they are just selling really quickly) and you have a class on the up... A lot is down to the class association and down to the fact that they have taken on the building (same as all ex Topper GRP boats most of whom have corrected the annoying niggles from Topper and now have great boats). Paul ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 04 Mar 07 at 5:17pm
|
I thought this was a thread about growth.....
I make that 100% growth. OK, only 2 years of data, but the event in Mumbles is looking good too. Jim's stats have removed the F16 because it is new. I was wrong about the F18's.
------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Posted By: WildWood
Date Posted: 04 Mar 07 at 6:12pm
|
There are some boats in the list that you would not expect to be there for defo. Larks? Fireflys? Laser 4.7? And what is a Splash? Have to wonder: 1) Did you mess up the figures. 2) If the figures are correct what on earth explains them.... ------------- |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 04 Mar 07 at 6:31pm
nice one on the table and I agree on excluding classes that are only a
couple of years old... great to see the Blaze up there, it may not be
all that hot when the wind is light but it's a lot of bang for your
bucks like Jeffers said and it's simple to own, rig and sail ... but
like all good things, a bit of a s$d to master! 
------------- Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 04 Mar 07 at 6:51pm
Splash massive in Europe. Designed to fit between Oppy and Laser. Big on the east cost. Great boat. Knowing Jim I very much doubt he has messed up the figures. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 04 Mar 07 at 6:52pm
|
Why don't you get out a calculator and check? http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/classes/?s=44 - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/classes/?s=44
|
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 04 Mar 07 at 9:45pm
|
Here is 6 years of data - does that not count JIm? Musto Skiff UK Nationals Attendance
I make that 68% growth in 2006 ...
------------- |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Posted By: MRJP BUZZ 585
Date Posted: 04 Mar 07 at 9:58pm
Isn't it the average from 2001, 2002 and 2003 compared to 2004, 2005 and 2006? ------------- Josh Preater http://www.bu22.co.uk">  BUZZING IS FUN
|
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 04 Mar 07 at 10:07pm
On that metric it's +216% ------------- |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 04 Mar 07 at 10:46pm
|
Those of us who sail the Blaze know why its turned around - forget the stats its simply a great boat to sail, with a vibrant CA and active community. It's fully sorted and to be fair the growth was from a humble starting point several years ago. If you can handle a Laser or similar you can get along very well with the Blaze. Its fine in the light stuff but some light wind excelling classes will inevitably glide away but the Blaze is no slouch either in the light stuff if you practice enough. However give us 7-8 mph and the boat starts to come into its own and in 15+ mph its simply magic planing fast both upwind and down and it will humble many a 'faster' boat on the water. Yes we are scheduling the second batch of Cirrus/Rondar built boat already, several months earlier than anticipated - and we need to now. However earlier boats with a reasonable sail and a bit of owner TLC are fully competitive so you can start competitively on a limited budget if you can find one (ask us or the CA). Now some might not be seen dead in one but you are always welcome to try, you might even like it - (We'll keep quiet if 'image' is the issue !) Seriously we are planning a couple of open trial days soon - Blaze, Beer and if warm enough BBQ provided, contact us through the Blaze association. Don't believe us though - just try one. Blaze 720 aka Cirrus Raceboats (via association website) |
Posted By: MRJP BUZZ 585
Date Posted: 05 Mar 07 at 10:24am
|
Whats the optimum weight for a blaze? ------------- Josh Preater http://www.bu22.co.uk"> BUZZING IS FUN
|
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 05 Mar 07 at 12:08pm
Anything from 65kg to well over 100kg, competitive in all winds except the very light stuff. Although at 65kg you will struggle when it gets up! I was sailing mine yesterday in a good F6+ (having not been in it for a few months) and it was great  .------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 05 Mar 07 at 4:32pm
|
Many boats claim a wide range - but we really do ! The wings and very adjustable and refined rig allow easy depowering or reverse. I'd say jeffers has got it right but the majority are between 70 and 95kg - simply because so many helms are in that range anyway. There are notable exceptions outside this band but these tend to prefer lighter or windier events depending on what end of the range they are beyond but they cope well even when it is 'too light' or 'too breezy' respectively .... The hull is a very low rocker design and it does cope well with a wide range - a little slower than a Laser or similar to tack but the big payback comes when planing - and it does that faster than most comparable boats. It often surprises newcomers how high it can also point when in displacement conditions for such a wide /flatish boat but the technique to use then is to allow a little leeward heeling rather than trying for 'absolutely flat' - as soon as the wind picks up and planing becomes a possibility - flat is the way to go. Not that difficult to sail but it does demand a bit of rethinking and new learning to get the full potential out. You use the kicker and cunningham frequently (and the systems are sorted !) and sail mainly on mainsheet tension. Buy one or at least try one - the boat generates a lot of opinions and in many respects is an enigma - centreboard, wide wings, carbon tubes but alloy mast, one design but much freedom in controls, developed rig and a class that is prospering in a congested market. Some 'tradiitonal' leanings then but with many 'new age' ones as well and it appeals to all ages and most sizes. Its well sponsored with HP and the Loddon (real ale) Brewery helping things along as they have for several years now and this year several sponsored boats to add interest. Anyone out there - If you want to try one contact me or the association via their website. If you want a used boat ditto - a number of exising owners are looking to sell and buy new - but the best go very quickly so come along for a trial in the near future - you could make to the Nationals in June yet. Blaze '720' www.cirrusrace.com |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Mar 07 at 4:51pm
ROFL!! |
Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 05 Mar 07 at 6:17pm
|
When you get up again - why not have a go yourself Jim ! We are not claiming exceptional performance just very very much more than 'adaquate' and everything is relative - you might even be surprised if you were seen .... yes well 'alive' in one. It's an open invitation that stands - or is this sort of boat just too humble to even try ? Blaze 720 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Mar 07 at 7:02pm
Actually I've sailed one. But my amusement was nothing to do with sailing qualities, which I was't commenting on. My amusement was at your description of the hull form as low rocker... There is no way I would ever describe that hull as very low rocker unless maybe you're comparing it to an Alabacore or something. Aft of mid length especially it has quite a lot of rocker. |
Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 05 Mar 07 at 8:58pm
Jim - Then set up a base line and get measuring and add a few figures to back up 'anecdote'. We make them so we know - what exactly do you regard as 'low rocker' then ? The Blaze is a Howlett shape anyway and the story goes that between drawing and tooling production an error flattened it by a further 2-3 cm !!. It's not 'extreme' in overall terms but its very low rocker for this type of boat - comparing it with a Albacore makes me wonder from what angle you viewed it - wetside up perhaps ?  Blaze 720 |
Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 05 Mar 07 at 9:31pm
OK this is really a huge amount of rocker ( Merlin Rocket banana boat)
and this is low rocker ( even for a cherub ): 
I would suggest that the blaze is therefore moderate rocker! Just tell us the numbers! ------------- " rel="nofollow - http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk Andy P foiling Int Moth GBR3467 Freedom 21 Codling |
Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 05 Mar 07 at 10:03pm
|
Context guys - its not a Cherub although even I dabbled there once upon a long time ago indeed ! (probably before most current Cherub racers were born) The Blaze class is far from being as extreme and it is a medium speed hiking singlehander - but relative to its 'peers' its very flat indeed. Think Phantom, Laser etc. We all know what extreme means and it is always relative to the context. Blaze 720 - ( but I will post numbers before too long and measure a few comparable classes first as well - could be interesting) |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Mar 07 at 12:21am
| Grief mate, it is not a criticism to say that the Blaze is not a "very low rocker" boat. Bearing in mind the various vices that can come with banging that particular design corner its more the reverse. Its a pretty typical mainstream late 80s British hull shape evolved from the pre amalgamation 14 design style. |
Posted By: aardvark_issues
Date Posted: 06 Mar 07 at 9:55am
|
I actually thought it needed a bit more rocker to be a truely good alrounder,
but having said that from my one sail in it I think its actually a bit of a handicap bandit! Turns out I would have won the fast handicap fleet even though they started 3 minutes ahead! Surprisingly nice boat, but then so was the EPS... |
Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: 06 Mar 07 at 10:08am
The times i've sailed one it goes like a rocket but tacking it makes it scoop up water from the open back. Isn't this because of the lack of rocker and buoyancy at the back of the boat? |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Mar 07 at 10:36am
More likely you're just tacking too far back in the boat... I hadn't noticed that happening when I sailed one. (or do you weigh 19 stone?) |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 06 Mar 07 at 2:41pm
|
Look at the avatar ... probably ... ------------- |
Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: 06 Mar 07 at 5:27pm
 ROTFLMFAO |
Posted By: MRJP BUZZ 585
Date Posted: 06 Mar 07 at 5:30pm
|
What does ROTF bit mean?
------------- Josh Preater http://www.bu22.co.uk"> BUZZING IS FUN
|
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 06 Mar 07 at 5:43pm
|
Roll On The Floor ------------- |