Taken from the 29er worlds news on the home page;

At 2pm the wind registered 37 knots, a speed that exceeds the maximum of 25 knots established in the rules of the 29er Class World Championship

Now I'm in one of the lightest Fireball teams going at just under 19stone all up and we raced in 25+ knots on sunday and it was the most fun I have ever had in the boat since we got it. Why deprive the 29er saioors of the challenge and thrill of this much wind?

Seems strange, are there any other classes that have this sort of rule?

You'd think that if your racing a 29er then you sailing skill should enable you to sail safely in 25 knots

Appendix 4 - Event Rules

 a. The minimum wind speed for starting will be that in which the race committee considers the boats have sufficient capability for pre-start manoeuvres 

b. Races should not start, or races in progress should be abandoned when:

i wind gusts exceed 25 knots for more than 30 seconds  

ii wind gusts exceed 30 knots for any duration

iii the race committee considers conditions are unsafe for sailing

I think the 49er has that too.

We used to have it in the Musto rules but dropped it as we like sailing in the breeze too...

Now we have the below;

1.2. Races should not start, or races in progress should be abandoned when:

(a) The race committee considers conditions are unsafe for sailing.
(b) The wind is less than 4 Knots for more than 5 minutes.

it was not really a rule more of a guideline, race officers would sail us until like any class the fleet can not handle it anymore, At San Fran worlds in 2005 there were quite a few races that officially would have breached this rule. It was only made a big deal last summer when in the middle of a race the wind dissapeared and half the competitors were timed out. So they all protested and re ran the race.

I think its for race officiers that have never been a race officier for 29er, 49er etc and a guide for them.

heres a pic from san fran in one of the morning light wind races....

It's not possible to gauge the wind strength at some venues from the beach though so it might look OK but when you get out there...

Also there is a lot of peer pressure to go out when it's windy and some crews may feel they have to go out when really it isn't safe to because of their skill-level (I don't think weight has much to do with it over 25kts). Generally speaking the younger you are the worse you are at judging risk so it makes sense for junior fleets.

As Matt says above, weight has little to do with it in 'survival' conditions. There are many races I can recall when most of the lardies had to be rescued or run for the beach while the good light sailors were still getting round the course.

Why the same rule for 29er as 49er? They are significantly different boats - I've seen 29ers sailed really well in 30kts but even the very best 49ers will struggle in that much wind.

If it's a guidline - that should be made clear and race officers should consult class reps as several factors come in to play. For instance,  

• a Worlds fleet should be far more capable than say a Nationals or Regional or Inlands fleet where some relatively inexperienced crews will be competing.
• 30 knots inland should be easier / safer than 25 kts in say Hayling Bay - especially if the Bar is pumping!

Ever tried anchoring a committee boat in, say, 25 knots in Hayling Bay?

I think there are a lot of "fishermen's tales" about how much breeze people have sailed in. A continuous 25 knots (as opposed to gusts) is a solid blast of wind. 30 knots will have most racing keelboats heading home, let alone dinghies.

The other consideration for a championship is that racing in 25 knots plus will inevitably cause a lot of damage. Pressure to go out early in the championship in a lot of breeze could easily spoil the whole event for a lot of people. You are there to have fun, not to break the boat on day 1 and go home.

It has to be borne in mind that many (relatively) modern boats such as the 29er, B14 and 49er are much more heavily canvassed than older craft (e.g. Fireball) which means their maximum manageable windspeed will be lower.  It doesn't blow that hard that often, and the more heavily canvassed the boat the more fun you'll be having further down the wind range - ergo most of the time more sail is more fun.

Mike

Isn't it to do with the fact that modern skiff type boats rigs are not designed to be de-powered and de-powered to survive comfortably if the wind really gets up. It is much harder to simply 'survive' in a skiff than a traditional dinghy shape and rig.

Therefore it makes some sense not to send them out in conditions that could turn nasty and potentially cause damage and injury. Particulary in this litigeous age.

Of all the boats I've sailed in that wind the RS600 is streaks ahead for grin factor and ease

You are on to the right train of thought, however, the rigs are designed to be deopowered extensively. The ability to depower the rig on say something like the 49er in my opinion is much greater than on classes like the 505 and Osprey. However, boats of more traditional design don't react so much to changes in acceleration, 2 sail reaching on the 49er becomes a bit of a mine field in comparison to doing the same on a traditional boat due to the increased rate that the boat hits top end speed with minimal hull resistance to keep the bow up. Boats like the 49er sail best when they are balanced so powering up, dumping, powering up, dumping, knocks all the balance out and makes it more difficult to sail. The traditional classes depower and deal with conditions by dumping, which you simply don't do. It's better to be sailing full speed in 20 kts of breeze and to be hit by a 30 kts gust because the wind speed difference is 10 kts which is also reduced if you're boat speed is greater than the wind speed, where as if you dumped power and the boat is sailing at 10kts, you are subjected to a 20 kts gust instead of a 10kts gust. There are times when we have been sailing flat out in constantly high wind conditions of above 25 kts with our main set perfectly and when a gust hits, the battens invert slightly as the top section flexes, at that stage the rig is deciding to slightly depower on our behalf, then it powers up as the forces on the sail decrease slightly. The key factor is to keep the boat going fast and in conditions above 25 kts, gut instinct tells you to back off and you just have to keep driving faster and faster. For safety's sake, when we are sailing in those conditions, I'll pass slower boats to leeward in case we are forced over so the rig doesn't land on their boats. If we go to windward, we give a passing distance of at least the length of the mast between the boats. In those instances, doubt boat on boat racing would be ideal as the passing distances have to be greater for safety reasons and that might be part of the driver between upper wind limit conditions being applied to class rules. 

Originally posted by Merlinboy TT, i am of ample proportions lets borrow a osprey in 25 gusting 30 and see how easy it is   could be good fun

No sweat, you'd breeze it

Nah, I put mine back on its trolley on my own last weekend.  Yours must have had the beer fridge still stocked....

These were my thoughts as well, especially hull shape.  I guess technique is all important but I'd be interested in comments from Jim.

I wouldn't do that in the B14 (it is possible due to non self tacking jib).  The jib is over 5 sq/m and quickly overpowers the small rudder and makes life very hard. 

The best way to depower skiffs is through the cunningham, makes a whole world of difference, it's not so much of an off button but has almost the same affect as putting a reefing slab in a leadmine, just adds more control. The major trade off is between keeping the rig powered up and keeping the bow up. Very narrow margin for error, so being precise and more subtle about depowering is the key. Older classes weight seems to have made the difference, as such in the Osprey, where as in the likes of the 49er its about how precise your actions are.

Yep Cunningham is king - on cats we've been downhauling sails to death when windy for years - works a treat !

This is sailing

http://www.ltsc.co.uk/ - http://www.ltsc.co.uk/

Talk about windy weather! I know the Fireball sailors that went to this event and they were the only boat upright at one point!

I am surprised none of our antipodean forumites have chipped in - the source of the rule has nothing to do with how well different boats can cope with that much wind.

The no sailing above 25kts, as I understand it, is exceedingly common in sailing instructions for sailing clubs in Aus due to the influence of the insurance companies.  Given that the 49er and 29er come out of that environment it does not surprise me that the rule is there...

These modern skiff type boats seem to be very easy to depower compared with the older designs.  The only trouble is they also tend to have less stable hulls.  The net result is that they revel in strong winds but once things go wrong you're in trouble.

I took my 4000 to Garda a few years ago.  One day was reputed to be 29Knots but being Garda the wind was smooth and, dare I say it, it was manageable, just.  But after a capsise it was very difficult to get going again.  You have to sail these boats at 100% in those conditions whereas the more conventional boats allow you to sail a bit conservatively and survive.

I have to mention though that it was fantastic, planning upwind at quite some speed the boat sometimes leaped off one wave missed the next and crash into the next.  Frightening for the structure of the boat, terrifying for those on board and I wouldn't have missed it for the world.

Does anyone believe the impressive footage in Higher and Faster of the 800 is really 35knts? That is a F8!

Going back to depowering with the jib, "High Performance Sailing" says a good way to dump a lot of power is ease the jib until it backwinds but isn't flapping. You lose the power without increasing drag too much (in theory!). I have yet to try this though.

Interesting little thread this is turning into guys...

For my 4-penny's worth, I would say that first of all there is a difference between "de-powering" and "dumping power". With any rig, as the breeze gets up you want to start to de-power. This is a gently and progressive action, and in here you guys are right when you say that a "skiff-type" rig is more flexible and easier to de-power. However what people usually struggle with when it's windy are the gusts, and this is where hard rigs can be a problem (because of the nature of the hard,fully-battened sail, you get this very on/off situation. Either the main is set and driving, or it's inverted and not driving), so if you ease out in the gusts you simply start to hobby-horse. With soft sails you can "feather" them more in the gusts, allowing them to luff a little but still keeping some drive on.

Regarding your comment about the jib Jim, I used to do this on the Cherub too with good effect, but on something like a B14 (or certainly on the 12ft Skiff), it'll  just bin you straight in because the jibs are so much more powerful.

Hopefully see you orrible lot at the Dinghy show....

Modern rigs are adjustable enough to let you depower and stay in control of much more rag than was possible before.

When the rig is depowered and you are moving quickly I think even large gusts are OK as long as you are agressive. I do not think that a fully battned sail is any more difficult or on off when you are powered and moving. It will still flog inside out in the gusts just like a soft sail.

The problem is manuvers when all that extra rag gets pushed into a powerful shape by the stiff battens. As soon as you tip it in you can get stuck in a knightmare getting started again.

I think the rule also has a lot to do with safety boats, it takes a very powerful moter to be able to cope with large flogging sails.

Yes. I've sailed for 25 years and only been in steady 35 knots three times (as evidenced by wind instruments). One of those was during a Cowes Week, most boats retired, more than one sank, and several sailors went for unscheduled swims off big boats (all were lucky enough to be picked up by other boats).

I've been in steady 45 knots just once and a sailor drowned during the race following a knock-down. The bottom six feet of atmosphere were full of spray - it almost looked like mist - which is a thing I've not seen at any other time. These are serious amounts of breeze even for big boats and not most people's idea of fun in reality.

Also 35 knots on the sea can be quite different to 35 knots on a reservoir