As some of you m,ay know, I have been intending to design and build a NS14 to race here in England.  What's one of them?  Click http://www.ns14.org/ - here to see the association website.  In a nutshell they are a two-man, two-sail, Australian development class which was the basis of the Tasar (a one-design spin-off).  Since the Tasar was introduced things have moved on a bit and they are generally considered one of the most influential and efficient classes around .  Frank Bethwaites 'High Performance Sailing' devotes a large section of the book to the developments in this class (up to the mid 70's when he produced the Tasar).

Anyway, whilst building my own is still a possibility, I have sourced some new boats at a truly exceptional price.  They are available from Landenberger Sails in Germany (Andrew L is an Aussy who moved to Germany and a former Moth world champ and Olympic silver medallist).  I am probably going to go to Germany at Easter to collect one.  If anyone else would like one, then I will definitely go.

If any one else is interested please let me know.   

They do look nice but won't you be a bit lonley?

Why not get a Merlin, N12 or a Tasar?

Rick

Which raises the question: when was a new box rule class last successfully introduced? By "successful" let's say at least 100 boats built.

I suspect it was the Merlin Rocket in 1951, which (amazingly enough) was a merger of the "Merlin" and "Rocket" classes. Both those predecessor classes were founded by syndicates of owners, not "one man with a vision".

You could also make a case for the IOR Ton Cup boats. IOR was agreed in 1968 and in the 1970s large numbers of half-tonners were built, a few of which are still racing today. However strictly speaking the Ton Cuppers were built to a maximum rating, rather than a "box". 

f18 is a pretty sucessful box rule. also aclass cat.

NS14 is a lovely boat, i think landy was selling one out of an old flight 24 mould with bigger rigs.

F16 too; we may not yet have got to 100 worldwide, but it must be getting close.

So there haven't been any successful new monohull "box" dinghy classes in the UK in the last 30 years but there have been new multihull classes. Why the difference?

I suspect the answer is that for monohulls there hasn't really been a gap in the marked whereas for multihulls the opposite is true, but it would be interesting to hear what the multihulls people have to say.

Nice looking boats.

http://www.landenberger-sailing.com/spip.php?article26 - http://www.landenberger-sailing.com/spip.php?article26

They are not quite NS14's as they have bigger rigs and a trapeze.

Do look very nice though.

Rick,

I have a long answer to that on my other computer, but I can't post it to Y&Y from it, so I'll give you a shorter answer for now. 

1. N12 - Too small for me and (IMHO) some silly rules.

2. Merlin Rocket - Hella expensive new and too difficult to build my own. Also I don't want a kite, and they are quite complex boats.

3. Tasar - Is essentially a one-design spin-off of the NS14, but 30 years old.  Things have moved on - if you like the Tasar you'll love the NS.

I won't be lonely because there is no class racing at my club anyway (except Lasers and Solos), so whatever I sail will be in a mixed handicap...

Technically, of course, its not a new rule.  There's a couple of thousand NS' in Oz, and boats in New Zealand, USA and Canada. 

What do you consider to be silly rules?

N12 'silly' rules:

No full length battens.  Measures 'rule' sail area not actual - leading to a sail shape that gives free area, not most efficient shape.  Bans daggerboards but allows fixed rudders - where's the logic in that?  All carbon hulls - v expensive.

Sorry - I don't hate them, but you did ask! I'm sure they are nice enough in their own way, but they are different to the NS14, so the two classes can co-exist.

I don't know enough about the 12 rules to comment on the details but there are plenty of classes that dont allow full battens; if fact most of them.

Also - I believe most classes also don't measure actual area - you always get a bit of free in the roaches...

I didn't know fixed rudders were allowed - I will check as all the boats I have seen have lifting rudders...

Rick

So it' just symantics then ... just a different method for controling area.

Unless you measure lots of points I cant see that you can get the actual area on a sail with a curve and the last sail I had measured (Fireball) was measured resonably quickly so I can't see the result was the actual area. In fact I don't think the area was calculated just a few dimensions checked.

Rick

I can't comment on N12s but for Merlins it's a "feature" rather than a "bug" in the rule. There are a number of river clubs with Merlin fleets and the extra roach area high up helps them catch breeze wafting over tree-lined banks. Also, it's given Merlins their distinctive main shape, which is a distinguishing feature for the class which most owners like. If you don't like it, you probably don't buy a Merlin.

I don't know enough about the 12 rules to comment on that but I have asked someone on th 12 forum to address the point.

Rick

PS: Quite interesting this development class business ... never have any of these confusing issues with the Musto Skiff.

Jack,

One of the 12 gurus is going to follow up on this but I did find and article on this.

http://www.national12.org/private/Newsletter/Annual%20Newsletter/2003/newsletter2003.pdf - http://www.national12.org/private/Newsletter/Annual%20Newsle tter/2003/newsletter2003.pdf

Pages 23 - 25.

Seems you are incorrect having a bigger jib does not reduce the all up sail area ... well less than 1% impact ...

It also mentions in this article that the NS14 has a sail are of 9.3sqm which is relevant to this thead. A Tasar has 11.88sqm for the record.

So the 12 has quite a lot of sail for a small boat compared to these two ...

regards,

Rick

Heloo again.  Yes, what the others have written is what I was thinking, rightly or wrongly. 

The NS has tiny sails, but, from what I understand, will probably beat a Merlin around a course.  This is due to the efficient, fully battened rig, rotating mast and narrow, lightweight hull.  Time will tell, I suppose.

Jack, if you're looking for a boat why not get a NS! 

As someone who has owned both an NS14 and a 12 I can let you know that they are both enjoyable boats for a couple to sail together.  The NS14 seemed to be less weight tolerant, and in Australia to counteract this they had a minimum crew weight which stopped people sailing with nippers at big events.  It seemed to me that it would be good to get down towards this minimum crew weight.

The rig on the NS14 was very efficient, although I felt that I could not do so much with it as you can with the 12 rig.  The rotating mast had a mainsail that had a short foot length and with full length battens there was little that you could do other than have a reasonably new one and pull it up the mast and go sailing.  Technique was important.  Get the rig sorted and away you went.!

There was good club racing scene around Sydney.  Everyone sails in deep water so daggerboards were not an issue there.  It is venues that have always caused the daggerboard v centreboard issue in the 12.  It is interesting that RS tend to favour the centreboard in many of their boats.  They can't be too wrong given that they obviously had a free choice.

We considered shipping the NS14 back to the UK when we  left but in our hearts we knew that it would end up rotting somewhere as the attraction to sail on our own would be less appealing than getting back into the 12.

The 12 does have a number of prohibitions established over a number of years  eg fully battened sails, daggerboards, rudder gantries, rotating masts, 3rd sail....  I think that the sail measurements have evolved over time in a manner which did not force people to buy new kit.  As a result mast height has not changed in 70 years but more area has been added up higher.   Some might call these 'funny cross widths'.  The ratio between main and jib is really only typeformed by those not prepared to experiment.  This includes me, and many people towards the front of the fleet.  Few boats are built with masts that can move more than six inches at the foot.  Few people move a mast substantially once a boat has been built.  Gavin Willis in Paradigm has demonstrated that the rule has a lot of scope for people to achieve similar outcomes from very different assumptions.  For example, he has a 2.8m jib compared to the 'standard' 2.2m.  His rig is deck stepped, he has maximum freeboard of 80cm (most people have about 50cm).  He was a (fixed) winged rudder...  I could go on.

Essentially the rules are what the owners voted for.  There are always compromises required and often when the inevitable extension of a proposed change is that everyone needs to upgrade then you should not be surprised to find a degree of opposition.

Enjoy your NS.  I would be surprised if it was quicker than a merlin.  merlins seem to give fireballs a good race for their money on the water these days...  but it might happen.  The NS would certainly whip a 12 around the course as it is lighter and has a more efficient rig.  The NS was also a lot more friendly to sail downwind in a blow than a 12 is, the extra length and the daggerboard both helping.

The real joy of the 12 is that there is so much to think about, in both how you set the boat up and how you sail it.  Many similar characteristics to the NS except there is no-one to line up against over here.   A wide range of weights can compete successfully and the fleet has a warmth that only the older classes in the UK are able to exude.  Few 100% amateur classes could support a stand at the London Boat Show  for 2 weeks.  The 12 did.  Come and have a go.

Si, you are SOO fickle. I'm sure it's not long since you were declaring that the Inter17 was the answer to the world's problems!

Totally agree with your take on page 3 of this thread. Would also like to add that the formula based handicapping (SCHRS or Texel) allows new designs to enter the fray without having to wait for PY returns. Surpised you didn't think of that!

The F16 was made possible with the advent of spinnaker snuffers which are such a good idea you wonder why nobody thought of them before. A friend recently bought an old Hawk and then put a Landberger sock on the front. Totally transformed the boat. Another plus for F16 is the maniacal ego that is Wouter Hijink who has commitment to the F16 that borders on obsession.

Dave,

shearwaters have had chutes for about 25 years, just seems nobody copied them.....

I've now seen the light and bout an F16, Things change

Wouter is no longer part of the F16 world council.

Didn't see that coming! My only interest in F16 is a wistfull one whenever my crew is late so I'm not up to date on the class. And although Wouter's command of English is to be admired, either his phrasing makes him sound arrogant or he actually is that bad. Either way, I had reached the conclusion that he was the omnipresent godfather of F16. Your terse comments make me wonder about a sinister fall from grace?

Nothing sinister.  Wouter has stepped down from any involvement in running the class.  He's just an owner now.   

Given they have a longer pole now and a bigger kite how can the PY not have been revised?

The PY system is of course based on returns and so changes take time to impact but when a fundemental change is made I think the RYA miss a trick when they don't make an immediate adjustment as clearly bigger sails usually make boats go faster ...

Rick

I was watching the sailing out of South Brisbane SC on Saturday - 9 NS14s and 2 Tasars, 12 to 16kts wind with tide and about 2 kts of tide.  The NS14s creamed the Tasars, I would guess the Tasar sailors were equivalent with mid-fleet NS14 but still lost out by a big margin (about 10mins in the hour).  Wind on tide would have accentuated the difference in normal performance.

I have to say though that the NS14 rule is a classic of giving a really distorted hull shape - the designers are fighting the rule to get the shape that they know is fastest and I doubt new designs will be as fast as the late '90s designs due to the rules changing to avoid hollows and measurement bumps...I think the class has decided to enforce the old rise of floor dimensions and eliminated hollows which forces new boats to be fatter. 

Makes you wonder if the rule change should have gone for eliminating the hollows but goign slightly narrower to enable new boats to be just as narrow as the older rules but without the artificial distortions...

Purely from the perspective of maintaining the desire to keep the momentum in new designs.  Why bother designing and building a new boat when you know the new rule will make it slower than an older boat?

Well hey, for £4.5k you can have a brand new one all of your own...

Seriously, I'm hoping to take delivery at Easter.  Come down to Chew if you want a go.

With luck, I'll get to take the boat the the Lord Birkett this summer and maybe the Bloody Mary next winter.

One other advantage of them is that they sail single handed with just the main pretty well, apparently (the main is smaller than a Laser sail).  So sort of two boats in one, for when the crew complains it's too cold!

the newer ns14's are equal or faster than the grandfathered ones. in fact the last time the grandfathered boats won a nationals was in january 2000. That was an aero 11A which had the hollows, i know 'cos i helped measuerd it, and told them to take it away and refair it.

the winners of the nationals are here. http://www.ns14.org/content/view/104/121/ - http://www.ns14.org/content/view/104/121/

As far as i know peter V's boats didnt have the hollow below the chine.

OK Jim - bit of a dumb question but why would a narrow boat carry less weight?

Would it not just sit a bit lower in the water; now depending on hull shape that would add some wetted area but would it really be that much of a problem?

Rick

Then I stand corrected.

A week and a half to go!  Getting excited now...

I guess I'd better change my name.  I'll be 'Chewie' from now on.

But there is not that much more extra wetted area, and the bow is pointed ... the ends were always in the water on a low rocker boat ...

When you get it out on the water. Will come and say hi and try and blag a ride!

Hmmm, thought I'd added some photo's, but apparently not.

With more at http://www.sailns14.org - http://www.sailns14.org

From the side it looks uncannily like the prototype tasar, I have a dusty copy of the very first Tasar news letter from the mid 70's which has the whole design story.

It's a great looking boat, I hope more folk join you.

As you probably know, the NS14 class was created by Frank Bethwaite (and others) in the '60s.  Ten years or so later, he produced the Tasar as a one-design spin-off of the then state-of-the-art NS14, taking the opportunity to increase its length and sail area (11.6sqm v 9.3sqm) as the optimum crew weight for a NS14 at the time was quite light (less than 130kg).  

Since then the NS14 has developed and modern rig technology has pushed the crew weight back up to 130kg.  The hull of a modern NS14 has moved on quite a bit since the Medium Dribbly design which became the Tasar.  Where as the Tasar is very vee'd the modern NS14s have much more elliptical cross sections to reduce wetted surface area, whilst being flatter along the keel line to assist planing.  Indeed, the NS14 is widely claimed to have one of the most advanced hull forms in the world, being perhaps the first class to discover a dynamically humpless, smooth transition from displacement to planing mode.  This cuts out the semi-planing, forced mode, where boats are struggling to get on the plane, making them much faster around the course.  

I'm hoping to race it for the first time this weekend, which may give a better idea of PY, but I have provisionally agreed 1028 with my club.  This is consistent with the Aussie yardstick, which rates it slightly slower than a Tasar.  However, I understand that there isn't much handicap racing in Australia, and that therefore their yardsticks are not overly reliable.  This is further exacerbated by the fact that the NS14 is a development class and therefore the yardstick always lags behind developments.  Discussions with designers, class champions and other knowledgeable folk have suggested that they are probably 3 minutes an hour quicker than a Tasar, i.e. 5% quicker.  This ties in with my limited experience, where I felt I was sailing quicker than an RS400 when the apparent wind was forward of the beam.  So, to cut a long story short, it will probably drop to around 980 over time.   Not bad for a boat with less sail area than a Phantom!

As the only (sorry, first) NS14 in the country, I took the opportunity to get a bigger mainsail made in addition to the standard one.  This fits on the same mast and boom (normal NS14 mains have a very short foot that doesn't reach the end of the boom) but is 1.3sqm bigger.  The idea of this is to allow heavier sailors to compete (150-170kg combined) on equal terms with lighter sailors using the normal rig.  The normal rig is intended for man/woman, parent/child sized combo's, the bigger sail extends that to man/man teams.  

Both mains have big, square heads and look like scaled down Tornado or F18 sails.  My sails were made by Andrew Landenberger in Germany -  Landy is an Aussie who moved to Germany a few years back and used to sail NS14s.  He is also a former Moth world champ and Olympic Tornado silver medalist, so he knows what he is doing when it comes to making sails, especially for wing masts.

Incidentally, I understand that Rohan Veal (of foiling moth fame) will be competing in the next Australian NS14 championship.  They might be small and simple, but they really are cutting edge and attract the very best sailors (me excluded!).   And if anyone is interested, you can get a new one for less than the price of a small fibreglass SMOD.

thats a big claim to make beating 49er to the windward mark up to 10knots!! As soon as the helm is wiring from the wing the whole time they are super fast, in less that 4knots a thames A rater is quicker but over 4 we are alot quicker. I seriously doubt that anything other than cats, 18ft skiffs and moths can beat a 49er to the windward mark in anything over 4knots.  

Well when you get as good as landy (or as quick). Then come and have a race upwind...

FD is stupid fast upwind, but lets be honest, even an FD would struggle with a well-sailed 49er. So I'd strongly suggest you take the claims for the NS with a bushel of salt. FD's PY is 879, and it's as low as that almost entirely because of its pace upwind. I wouldn't want to bet my house on beating a 49er to the windward mark though, unless it was blowing 20+ knots and big waves.

Neil

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lXwvosfV6aY - http://youtube.com/watch?v=lXwvosfV6aY  - FD racing

I'm sure this has been posted before, but the speed upwind is quite awesome.

Nice fottage, but I guess that is from the good old days when the FD was an Olympic class,,, odd to see people wearing weight jackets.

He is right i'm sorry to say, i know i sail a 14, but i have seen 14s sail through a 9er fleet of good 9er sailors, i do know that we couldnt ddo it though not by a long way

Not sure what difference that makes. This footage is from Cadiz Worlds in either 91 or 92. A modern FD with carbon rig would be even faster in those conditions. I don't know how the 49er boys would feel about racing in that sort of breeze? I know they wouldn't have wanted to play in the early days of the class, but now? How about it? I reckon an FD would be quicker than just about anything round a course in 25 knots and waves, but that's only my opinion!!

That's some quality sailing going on right there. I like the sequence at the gybe mark about halfway through the vid where the crew trips the pole off the mast, the boat rolls to windward and it looks like they've ****ed it up, then all of a sudden you realise, nah, they know EXACTLY what's going on!   Class!

we had a race at the 49er worlds where our coach was  getting 30-33knots on his anemometer and averaging 28knots. We were absolutly fine upwind, got the bear away in and then could hardly fill the kite which was when Iker and Xavier (2004 Olymplic Gold Medalists) sailed past us with the kite flying. Its only downwind which is every the issue...

I would love to see a 14 sail past a well sailed 49er upwind, they may have the same upwind sail area and although the boat weighs less the crew certainly do not lol, but there not as wide and not as long. I am sure there will be certain conditions like massive chop but even then the 49er is not slow.

Good to see your NS14 up and sailing, looks great. Can you post more photos some sailing, internal layout, some close ups etc. As a keen Tasar sailor  I would love to see the boat , why not bring it over to our Inlands at Oxford and Nationals at Lymington. Iam sure you would get loads of interest, such a great nich boayt a modern Tasar! Good luck

Rod Tasar 351

Reference to 14s beating 49ers upwind, I have heard the sole remaining 14 sailor at our club mention that he saw it happening and at times was pacing the 49ers upwind himself.  Now feel free to slap me down (Jim C) but wouldn't the addition of foils on the rudder effectively lengthen the waterline negating some of the 49ers advantage.

Keep up the good work with the NS14 if it looks like theres some interest it will be on my list of possibles if i go back to sailing 2 handers.

Hi Chris,

Yeah, I don't think a standard NS would beat a 49er, but Landy's Flight rig (similar to my big rig) is optimised for light winds, and I doubt whether the 49er at his club is Olympic standard!  I'm not making some Doug Lord style claim as to performance, but it does an indication.

Porteous - I'll try and get some more photo's this weekend.  The layout isn't hugely different to a Tasar, apart from the fact it has a bridle (RS200 style) rather than a traveller.  Other than that the differences are in the detail.  I would be interested in joining in with you Tasar guys at some point, if allowed.

Tack'ho - I think your right re the T-foil.  PS You can sail the NS singlehanded with just the main:

Actually, it does...

Without the t-foil the pivot for the pitching moment on a Slug is about in the middle of the boat.

With the t-foil the pivot moves to the transom, effectively making the boat 24ft.

I agree Biekers theory that it "tricks the bow wave" into making the boat think it's longer is a load of round objects.

But a t-foil definately makes the boat feel like it's much longer when you're riding the bucking bronco downwind.