hi all. long time since i posted, hopefully you wont hold that against me as i could do with some advice,

i'm fed up with the laser and wanting something faster,

the requirements were

• Faster then laser
• Singelhanded
• Trapeze
• spiniker

so after looking about for a while ive managed to get it down to two, the laser vortex and the RS700,

To me the RS700 looks amazing, it would be signicantly more brass then the vortex and be harder to sail, although i don't mind a challange i'd be worried that in the windy stuff i'd end up staying on shore.

i'd be sailing the boat which ever it may be on grimwith resoviour (yorkshire dales sc)

they have more vortexs at that club then anywhere i can think of; and only 1 or 2 700's though i aint too bothered about fleets as handicap racing is just as fun,

what are the proformances like, has anyone sailed boat? or either?

then theres running costs, the vortex would be allot cheaper to buy replacement parts for as well as insuring the  700 insurance quotes are mad.

any thought would be greatly appriciated, ive done a search of the forum but there isn't a comparison between the two, its all RS700/MPS etc.

Cheers
Jon  

To me it looks like the RS700 is slowly and surely being wiped out by the Musto Skiff. After all these are very similiar boats and therefore it makes sense which in the long term only one can really survive!

Just playing devils advocate here.

But other classes in Britain which are equally similiar seem to co-exist quite happily. Why should it be any different for the 700/MPS?

The Finn and the Phantom, the Supernova and the Blaze, for instance.

IMVHO The Finn and the Phantom are not the same, one is for the Olympic aspirational sailor the other is not! The supernova and the Blaze require different optimum crew weights and are for those who do not want to sail Laser/Radial (Olympic boats).

We are lucky that there is a lot of single handers so most people can choose there niche and still have a good flight to race against as there are so many single handers. However there are not really the numbers in high performance single handers (to get for example 100 boats at a Nationals). So one class is likely to suffer.

Having seen a lot of the top RS700 sailors looking to or have purchased MPS... it looked like rats leaving a sinking ship!!!!

Sorry I think my point is being missed! The classes you mention all have a huge following: double handed hiking spinnaker, single trapeze spinnaker etc.

Whereas I think that there is not the volume of sailors in the single hander trapeze and assymetric... ATM.

However I would still suggest sailors who sail 470/fireball are very different...

Anyway who knows anything about the Vortex!!!

Getting back to the question.

Grimwith is the (only) home of the Vortex fleet. However, it's a boat for lightweights (sub 75kg) if you want to be competitive. The 700 will be most competitive around 85kg although it's weight equalisation racks allow a broad range of crew weight.

They're chalk and cheese. Having owned a Vortex, I'd probably go for the RS700 this time. Much faster but much more challenging to sail.

hey, well  this thread has been around the houses, never mind, made some interesting reading,

yeah the mps is going to be too much really,

the 700 is what i really want its just the expense,

intially its more expensive to buy and then again its more expensive to run, and i think that the vortex would be sailable across a wider weather range.

Hi Jon,

Please don't be too quick to write off the 700. We had by far our most successfull year to date in 2006 with record attendances at all of our events.  The '2007 MPS World Champion'  would look good on any professionals cv and I can fully understand why a couple of the 'profile' folk have moved on. Good luck to them.  However, as in all the RS boats the real strength of the fleet lies in the club members, not the top pro's. 

Longer term, the 700 Owners Association has only been operating for a year now and we've still got a lot of tricks up our sleeve.  I've tried both and the two boats are in fact quite different in character, I believe there's room in the market for both.  We just need to do some marketing and get this message out there, something the Victor boats and Rick have done extremely well for the MPS.  Anyway, don't dismiss us too soon...

Anyway, rant over and back on topic,

Sailor Jon, I'll happily reply your pm.  I jumped into the 700 from the laser a couple of years ago and have never looked back.  The only real alternative I was considering was to give up sailing so the 700 really saved me from a life of golf

I've never sailed the Vortex so I can't really comment on the relative merits of the two boats.  On the water they appear to be quite different beasts in terms of both difficulty and performance, so you should probably try both before you decide.

Ian

RS700 GBR960

www.sail4cancer.org

Just out of interested I owned a RS700 for a year and really enjoyed sailing it :)

Hi Jon

There are a couple of RS700s sailed at Yorkshire Dales SC (Grimwith Reservoir) but sadly no MPS. Both are great boats and if I was going to sail at a less windy venue, was heavier&taller and had more money, I'd gladly sail either (although I have a preference for the MPS) .

You already know that there are nearly 20 Vortex at YDSC with regular turnouts of up to 10 boats. So a huge factor to be considered is the competition and fun that this fleet racing generates. And as you know there are a few recent converts to asymmetric & trapeze helming via the Vortex so you'd have lots of help from fellow enthusiasts, and competition at all levels of the learning curve from near beginner to ex international sailors.

Your own thoughts/comparisons about the initial cost, maintenance/insurance costs etc are all valid and let's face it, there's hardly anywhere regularly as windy as Grimwith so you have to consider how you'd feel watching the Vortex fleet blasting around whilst you watch because you can't risk a torn sail.

Some folk will tell you to jump straight into an MPS/700 - and just put up with a season of 'crash and burn'. In some ways they have a point but I think the Asymmetric version of the Vortex whilst a significant challenge in itself rpresents an acheivable way to learn the new set of skills required to trapeze / asymmetric helm.  And at the same time enjoying plenty of exciting sailing in almost all conditions at relatively little cost, and with good competition locally and at opens.

And of course there's nothing to stop you continuing to save your cash aiming to move on in a year or two - if you actually want to by then!

Yes it makes sense - but why is it necessarily a shame?

What is the first bit of advice that is normally doled out on this what boat thread - chose what is sailed at your club...you can't have it both ways!

IMVHO it is a shame as when "better" boats come out it takes so long for people to change class. For example we still have 2 Bosses sailing at the Nationals. Personnally I feel the sail a boat they sail at your club is a good starting point for people new to the sport... I figure by the time you are looking at a RS700 you are pretty well up the learning curve !!!

Depends on your definition of "better"

The 700 is an active and growing class, with a number of design features (compromises in the eyes of the 'pure' skiff sailor) which tailor the boat to be more accessible for newcomers to singlehanded skiff sailing. 

Ian

Better boats: Boss -> 49er (49er is more advanced)

The ISO was a great boat when it came out but now looks very outdated. Modern construction techniques mean we can build stiffer lighter boats, controlled with better blocks and ropes with more advance sail cloth set on more responsive masts...

When looking at your costs you need to take innto account what your boat will be worth when you come to sell it.

My first MPS GBR093 I sold over 2 years ago for £5000; I am sure the current owner could get that now!!!

The MPS probably the cheapest boat I have ever owned; of course you have to find the cash to buy it in the first place but because of the interest in the class the boats hold their price well.

The latest sailors database is here;

http://www.mustoskiff.com/sailors-database.htm - http://www.mustoskiff.com/sailors-database.htm

You will see that there are sailors of all abilitys that come from a range of classes.

PM me if you want to know more ... our club used to have no Mustos ... now we have 19

"Faster and more technically advanced" is seductive but doesn't automatically lead to a more enjoyable sailing experience.

For example, a lot of the newer designs have very efficient hulls that hardly make any spray, but I like sailing boats that make lots of spray! I like playing with water, it's one of the reasons I go sailing, so standing up on a trapeze, five feet above the surface on a boat that's making no spray just doesn't do it for me.

There are loads of other factors, like the feel of the helm, the way the boat works with you, steering in the gusts, and the newer designs are by no means always better in these respects. This probably explains why we still have so many different classes sailing today - we all like different combinations of the possibilities.

Coming back to the original question, is there much feel in a Vortex helm, or does it just run on rails till it flips or pitchpoles? The other thing I've heard about the Vortex is that its capsize behaviour is far from perfect: loves to sail away from you and has to be righted on top of you - scary. Capsizing probably doesn't happen that often, but that would make it more shocking when it did.

Sorry I keep steering the topic away from the orginal question!!!

The 49er like the MPS is a very good boat, so although the inital costs are high so is the resell value (the boss etc represents excellent value but you may not be able to sell your boat).

I am not trying to "write off" any class but when you have only two boats at the Nationals...

I don't disput the merits of the 700 or MPS, but it is annoying that the Vortex is 'dissed' quite regularly on this Forum - sometimes being accused of being to dull and stable to be worth sailing but at other times of being impossible to sail without flipping, pitchpoling etc.

So which of these extremes is it? I'd suggest it's neither. It does have an initial stability that some might think is dull - but others enjoy sailing a boat that can be driven hard, is fast, exciting and yet is (comparitively) forgiving in the gybes and so, depending on the skill level of the sailor(s), is capable of being sailed in stronger / gustier winds than most similar boats.

Jon - PM me or any of the YDSC Vortex fleet to arrange a test sail - I'll try to get a 700 there as well so you can decide based on facts rather than what you've heard or  - perish the thought - read here!

I see where your love lies, Hector, but my info comes straight from the mouths of Vortex sailors, if not from the maybe hardier mouths of Grimwith Vortex sailors.

That said, if someone asked me to hop unprepared into either an RS700 or a Vortex on a windy day, I'd choose the Vortex - at least I'd stand more of a chance of not capsizing it. Aside from that, the thought of flying through the air off an RS700 rack onto something hard and maybe thin is equally unappealing as trying to right a Vortex. But then I'm clearly a wimp in the market for neither, so I'll shut up now.

since when!

yep they are ! but the 5k is soooo much better for the same money

Actually they are a lot lighter than a 5k,(hard to believe I know  ) and I've seen a couple of them in pieces after a day when we were sailing the 5k and had no problems  (one actually ended up with the mast sitting inside the hull!)

100kg!!!!! think you will find I am 95kg and that is after a rather fattening Christmas and little ant is 62kg