two-sail dinghies
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2364
Printed Date: 18 Aug 25 at 12:49am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: two-sail dinghies
Posted By: gordon
Subject: two-sail dinghies
Date Posted: 27 Oct 06 at 9:48am
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Just been re-reading in an old(ish) copy of Y&Y the Test of the Albacore. It struck me that fans of two sail dinghies have some remarkable boats to choose from: for the lightweights, the team racers and such like - the Firefly for techies, boatbuilders and budding designers - the National 12 for those who like travelling round the UK with the occasional foray to the Indian sub-continent - the Ent for the slightly heavier sailor with a preference for hot-dogs, Jack Daniels and maple syrup - the Albacore for the lovers of barbies, tinnies and blokes called Bruce - the Tasar for the adventurer who wants to sail against sailors from countries that have never been part of the British Empire, and spend the summer trailing round Europe - the Snipe for the middleweight who wants to go to the Olympics - the Star (used to be a boat for heavyweights but then the class got an Italian Chairman - excuse this outburst of bitterness and prejudice) There are probably more classes, but significantly in the above list no design is recent. Is the market saturated by such a plethora of fantastic boats or can't the major manufacturers be bothered? Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Replies:
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 27 Oct 06 at 10:12am
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It is all about volume for the major builders ... ------------- |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 27 Oct 06 at 11:52am
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Really Rick? How many of the classes Gordon has mentioned has a "major builder"? Gordon: Star optimum crew weight is 420lb. Boxing super middleweight is max 168lb. I'm afraid Stars are still for heavyweights, even ones who cut a "bella figura". |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Oct 06 at 12:00pm
Agreed, but the two sail two hand boats are a pretty big segment of the market. SMODs haven't done well there to date for some reason though. I did try and estimate relative popularities of different categories of boats a while back. http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2 254 - See here... |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 27 Oct 06 at 3:49pm
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Stefan, It is all a matter of perspective. At 125kg and 1m94 I consider anyone under 100kg and 1m85 to be, for all practical purposes, a dwarf! (I exagerate, slightly). I don't really want to get into a debate about the Star Clas total crew weight. However the notion of an optimum weight for any boat usually implies that there are a variety of crew weights possible and that a best compromise for good results has been empirically determined. In the Star the process is somewhat different: the best crew weight is the highest weight allowed by the class rules, and everybody tries to be at that weight. If the class rules allowed more weight all crews would increase their weight, and the boat would go faster. The formula adopted means that the weight of the crew depends on the weight of the helm. There is not a single allup weight. The earliest formula was Crew weight (C) = (106.6- Skipper weight S)/1.5+106.6 kgs which meant that at 114-115 kilos I could crew a helm of 95 kilos - which is what I did when I spent a season looking at Star transoms! The new formula is c=((100-S)/2)+100kgs which means that at 115 kg I could crew for a helm of only 75 kg. Paradoxally, if I took the helm at 115kg I could have a crew of 92.5kg and we would be able to sail with an all up crew weight of 207.5kg. The debate in the class was interesting. The Americans weren't really bothered because it only affected the one boat per fleet that qualify for champoinships. The Bacardi Cup is not subject to weight limits. The Europeans seemed to have problems with the whole concept of Olympic athletes weighing more than 100kg. As soccer playing nations they had not spent their youth idolising the Pontypool front row and other fine figures of the larger specimens of humanity. Athletes are necessarily thin, light and not that tall it would seem! I think a debate about weight limits in sailing would be intersting, maybe elsewhere on this forum. I am concerned that as people seem to be getting larger (even without taking into consideration obestity) the optimum or permitted crew weights seem to be getting smaller. I would like to think that my son could go sailing with his colleague from the second row, but this now seems a forlorn hope. Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 27 Oct 06 at 4:12pm
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i'd class at mid weight bloke at about 80-85 kg. You're particularly tall, Gordon, but I doubt many people would fit in your redisigned average. i'm 180cm and 63kg- and there are full grown men a lot smaller and lighter than me. I agree ther should be a true heavyweight dinghy, but would there be a big enough market? I think the current option is to go into something like an RS400 and get a crew/helm of a size that combined you are the correct weight. ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Oct 06 at 4:33pm
I believe that's true for most leadmines. |
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 27 Oct 06 at 4:44pm
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edit: post not really on topic ------------- Needs to sail more... |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 27 Oct 06 at 4:56pm
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I agree. I will be away for a few days but wheni get back I will post my thoughts on weight limits and the decreasing size of sailors. To get back to the 2-sail dinghies. There seems to be a lot of people sailing them, a big demand for tactical sailing (downwind legs become nautical chess-games when a gybe incurs no speed penalty). So why aren't the SMOD builders interested? Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: tickel
Date Posted: 27 Oct 06 at 10:50pm
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The trouble with most 2 sail boats is that you need at least one friend. Wives are no use exept in exeptional circumstances and finding crew/helm who will stay together can be dificult. I am at least lucky to have been sailing with a miserable self centred bastard for the last 5 years. We carry on because no one else will take us on, exept the Tasar Nats when I sailed with my daughters boyfreind who tried to kill me. We do have two things in common, we are both crap and we have 9 children between us, 5 of his and 4 of mine. I can see no escape from this misery and we own half the Tasar each. Hey ho thats life. ------------- tickel |
Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 27 Oct 06 at 11:26pm
I sailed a two sail dinghy once. It felt fast and responsive upwind. It also presented a tactical option on the first donwind leg, either pretnd in the bar later that it was a bit tight, or go back tail between legs and attach the kite... ------------- RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed" Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs" Enterprise GBR21970 Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra" |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 28 Oct 06 at 6:53am
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What circumstances would those be then?
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Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 28 Oct 06 at 7:04am
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Yes it is, otherwise the only people sailing keelboats competively would be very large and invariably male. Gordon seems to be arguing that the Star is unusual in having a weight limit; that is not the case.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Oct 06 at 10:59am
Firefly crewing! Amazing how common it is to marry your crew in the Firefly class...It is the best way to keep a good crew...Then kids come along and you are back to square one...Still, my six year old has started crewing now, so things may be on the up again! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Oct 06 at 11:07am
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As for SMOD 2 sailed boats, the Firefly is one, of course! Topper tried to bring out the Topaz Duo a few years ago, but that was just horrible. Maybe the reason is that 2 sailed boats tend not to be about absolute speed, but about close quarters sailing, and the advances in boat design recently with asymmetics have been all about speed in a breeze. Certainly, on a small lake in the light stuff it is difficult to beat an Albacore or Firefly on the water, let alone on handicap. And the only ones who can sometimes are Ents and 12's. On the sea in a bit of breeze, it is a different story, of course, which is why there are 49ers out there! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 28 Oct 06 at 1:40pm
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Reckon another possibility for the big manufacturers not investing in the 2 sail market is because there are already good boats out there auch as the Albacore, N12, Enterprise, Tasar and Firefly. Building and developing a like SMOD to the N12, for example, would be very difficult and then you'd have to invest some heavy marketing to shift sailors from the class into the SMOD. It's probably the same reason that the focus has shifted from the High Performance market to the training market with the big manufacturers, because its an easier market to target and less investment in development and build cost have to be made. ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 28 Oct 06 at 1:59pm
that's more to do with volume, as much as you get volume dinghy production. But I'm sure you are right about the 2 sail maket. Unless you develop a big technical innovation it would be a hard sell. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 28 Oct 06 at 5:31pm
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I don't think it works like that. Consider the RS400 and Merlin Rocket; the first more or less a copy of the latter, and from a prolific MR designer. The RS400 attracted plenty of sailors but not, with a few exceptions, out of the MR fleet.
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Posted By: BBSCFaithfull
Date Posted: 28 Oct 06 at 6:04pm
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Last sunday i was sailing the 14 with 2 sails (because the 49er kite was rigged wrong :( ) And my temp crew and i were absolutely flying. When u overtake windsurfers you know ur doing some speed! ------------- Greatfully Sponsored By www.allgoodfun.com Int 14 GBR 1503!! |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 28 Oct 06 at 6:40pm
cough.... it's got three sails. RS400 is for MR sailors that didn't sail an MR becasue a Merlin Rocket is Restricted Dev Boat and got all wobblerly over spending £15k on something that they felt would get out dated. Weak minded cheap skates!!! ( don't flame me for that its a joke ) 2 sail boats need a very srong USP. N12 - you love developing and fidderling. FireFly - you love team racing Tasar - you want a rotating rig and don't want a Cat :-) and let's face it a Tasar is almost a SMOD So like I said you'ed need a techical innovation, like hydrofoils to sell it in large enough amounts for a manufacture to put the budget behind it. Especially when alot of ther production is geared towards holidays and schools. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: tickel
Date Posted: 28 Oct 06 at 10:49pm
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What is a USB ? ------------- tickel |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 28 Oct 06 at 11:20pm
USP.... Unique Selling Point. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 29 Oct 06 at 11:27am
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Three sails.....oddly enough, I'd noticed. Get with the plot here. It's an analogy. We are talking about SMOD clones of development classes now. RS400 wasn't for MR sailors. They weren't the ones who bought them. Similarly, a SMOD clone of a N12 wouldn't be bought by N12 sailors. The market, if there is one, comes from another group. |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 29 Oct 06 at 1:01pm
Mate... take it with a pinch of salt will you. You're the one that's telling me it's an anology. If you read my post properly you have realised I didn't say it was MR sailors that bought them, but people that would like a boat like a MR but didn't want to buy one becasue they are expensive and a Restric Dev class. I've spent nearly 25 years selling stuff for big brands - and although I have no involvement with RS i think I know what I'm talking about. What do you do for a living? ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 29 Oct 06 at 7:45pm
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There was a SMOD clone of the N12 in 1946. It did pretty well! BTW, the Firefly isn't just for lovers team racing - plenty of other stuff going on... ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Calum_Reid
Date Posted: 29 Oct 06 at 10:46pm
Yes i know all about weight limits in lead mines no food from wed - sat and a weigh in strip to boxers. We went from 13kg over the limit (350kg) to 6 under in that time between 5 people. Man did my pasta breackfast at 8:04am taste good. ------------- 
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Posted By: DiscoBall
Date Posted: 30 Oct 06 at 12:10am
And the 200 shares a certain resemblance to a 1970s Morrisson N12 design, so maybe the manufacturers consider that RS have got that area of the market covered too well already? |
Posted By: m_liddell
Date Posted: 30 Oct 06 at 12:16pm
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I've heard that the lark is also derived from an (old) N12. Is this true?
Universal serial Bus I think the rise in popularity of singlehanders (Laser, MPS etc.) is due to people having much less free time than before. Getting two people's schedules to match AND the wind/tide to be right means far fewer possible sailing days. Many people with double handed boats seesm to have access to a singlehander. Rigging skiff-type double handers in a pain and takes ages too. |
Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: 30 Oct 06 at 12:29pm
| FWIW, i belive that if the 59er had been marketed as a two sailer it would more likley have taken off as a class over here. In most respects the spinnakerized 59er was too fast for most inland lake sailors and having to follow the apparent wind really isn't possible on most lakes. However the ultimate turbo charged enterprise would certainly have garnered a lot of interest from Ent and Alb sailors that I know |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 30 Oct 06 at 12:47pm
Yes, Mike Jackson was a 12 designer who had lots of good ideas. The Lark and the 200 both have a spinnaker added, of course, which possibly confirms the theory that the 2 sailed classes are well catered for already. We mustn't forget the Graduate in all this, too, designed by 12 builders.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 30 Oct 06 at 8:58pm
Yeah... I know the Fire Fly has loads eles going on... one being the 194? Olympic single hander!? 
I'm giving up trying to be funny on here it's to much like hard work.  ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 31 Oct 06 at 12:53am
According to Phil M, the 400 was designed for a wide variety of people specifically including "overweight" MR sailors. He notes, as Stefan says, that the MR sailors didn't buy them. |
Posted By: damp_freddie
Date Posted: 11 Nov 06 at 5:45pm
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How about a boat with a closed cell foam sandwich hull, under 65kg, kevlar /e-glass, a wing mast, the comfiest hiking you will find, upwind planing and a 2005 designed set of new mylars? Made by proctors, to order. Well you named it already- the g'day bruce tasar! The thing is that assym's are so easy to hoist and manage that two sail boats are kind of lost IMHO, despite the fact that a tasar sailed well will eat : RS200s, vareos, Laser 2000/ 3000 etc and some others in the right puffy stuff. I think assym's have really opened up sailing to a faster learning curve and bascially, more fun per quid/buck/krone and per hour of precious leisure time. People who buy around the 1010-1040 assym are often using them to learn on, to get on up to sub 1000 PY assyms later.
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Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: 11 Nov 06 at 7:07pm
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>>Well you named it already- the g'day bruce tasar!<< Tasar, fine boat But didn't Frank B design it for a boy and girl to sail. What is needed is a 2 sailor that copes with 150 kees not 110 |
Posted By: Porteous
Date Posted: 29 Nov 06 at 9:09pm
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The Tasar was designed by Frank for a crew weight of 130 kg. But will easily remain competitive at 140 Kg. I sailed my 35 year old Tasar with new Mylars and combined crew weight of 160Kg into 10th position in this years round Sheppy race only being beaten by Cats an international canoe and a Fireball. So it can be competitive with more weight given the right conditions. The Tasar is now produced by Bethwaite Boats and imported into the UK by Signal Locker based in Lymington. We had 47 boats at our Nationals in Cornwall which demonstrates the class is very much alive and Kicking
Rod Porteous |