The Boss
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2058
Printed Date: 16 Aug 25 at 2:34am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: The Boss
Posted By: Suede
Subject: The Boss
Date Posted: 29 Jul 06 at 10:56am
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Any comments on this boat? It seems like Topper have stopped making them now, didn´t it take off in the UK? How many boats in the UK? What´s it like to sail compared to a RS800,49er etc? Quality? Secondhand boats seem to be a lot of bang for your buck.. ------------- May the Force 5 be with you |
Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 29 Jul 06 at 11:07am
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Lot of comments elsewhere on the forum. Yes, the class is pretty much dead. Like all of the early UK designed "skiff types" it suffered from being based on pre amalgamation 14s. This was a style of boat the 14 class was about to utterly abandon for new construction.
Mediocre rig, mediocre hull shape, perhaps built a little bit too much down to a budget. To its credit though it did at least finish scond (admittedly a distant second) to the 49er in the ISAF trials, with the others (like the 5 Tonner) nowhere. |
Posted By: jpbuzz591
Date Posted: 29 Jul 06 at 7:51pm
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they are currently trying to get the few boats which do some opens, to join with 5 tonners i think. National attendence this year wasnt good. There were only 2. nuff said really. ------------- Jp Indoe Contender 518 Buzz591 Chew Valley Sailing club Bristol |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 30 Jul 06 at 12:22am
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I'm sorry Jim but I think you've got the placings of the 5000 and Boss the wrong way round. I remember reading the pro's and con's in the summing up of the report y&y did and to be honest, both boats fell very short of the 49er but the 5000 had the Euro-cup in its favour but was deemed a bit of handful for lightweights. Probably not too much between the boats but the Boss didn't seem reliable at all from the boats I've seen and did seem off the pace compared to the 5000. ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: Skiffe
Date Posted: 30 Jul 06 at 8:29am
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Actually wasn't the I14 2nd? only because it wasn't a OD ------------- 12footers. The Only Way to FLY Remember Professionals built the titanic, Amateurs built the ark. |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 30 Jul 06 at 8:43am
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There were 3 polls in the trials. In "What is your general feeling of the boat" the top scores went; 1- 49er (15 "very good" ratings, 3 "good".) 2- Int 14 (7 very good, 1 "good- not all sailors rated it) 3- Boss (4 very good, 10 good) 4- B14 (4 very good, 8 good) 5- 5000 (4 very good, 7 good) then - FD, Mach 2 (up-rated FD), Jet, OD14, 505, ISO. In "if you could afford it, would you buy the boat" the scores went; 1- 49er (13 yes, 3 No) 2- B14 (8 yes, 6 no) 3 -Int 14 (5 yes, 4 no) 4- Boss/5000 (4 yes, 9 no), then D, Mach 2, OD 14, Jet, ISO, 505. In "would you select it for the Olympics" the scores were 1- 49er (16 yes, 2 No) 2- Boss (5 yes, 8 no) 3- Mach 2 (5 yes, 14 no) 4- 5000 (4 yes, 10 no), then Jet, FD, B14, Int 14, OD14, 505, ISO. The only official race went 49er, Int 14, Mach 2, Boss, 5000, FD, B14, OD14, ISO. Reporters noted the earlier races went more like 49er, Boss/5000, Mach 2, 14 or something. The low score for 505 was interesting. |
Posted By: jpbuzz591
Date Posted: 30 Jul 06 at 11:25am
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How come those numbers of scores arent equal throughout the classes. Especially on the yes/no questions, the numbers dont add up. ------------- Jp Indoe Contender 518 Buzz591 Chew Valley Sailing club Bristol |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 30 Jul 06 at 7:45pm
Nope, I haven't. I can't find the report on the web though. |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 30 Jul 06 at 11:04pm
I assume the sailors didn't have to vote if they couldn't really work out what they thought, 'cause they are the ones in the report from Aust. Sailing maga and I think Seahorse's report had the same votes. Also the votes I listed didn't include all the "very bad", "bad" and "ok" votes. There's always lots of rubbish from class associations or designers in later years about how they went in this sort of trials. Etchells, 505s, Ospreys etc have all been pumping out myths ever since. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 31 Jul 06 at 8:38am
Yesh, its a shame ISAF haven't got the evaluation commitee's report published on the net: these things are useful historical documents. I went through the '96 ISAF minutes but all I could find was an acceptance of the report, no detail as to contents. |
Posted By: Smithy
Date Posted: 01 Aug 06 at 5:09pm
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If I remember rightly, there weren't equal numbers of boats at the trials - eg I think there were two 49ers, but only one 14 (don't remember for the other classes). So fewer sailors got to try the 14 and vote on it. So you need to interpret (to the extent it really matters after all this time!) the "yes/no" votes in percentages rather than in absolute numbers... |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 01 Aug 06 at 5:34pm
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It might be an idea for y&y to shed some light on the subject because it was the y&y report I was refferring to but have long lost the copy. The boats which were on trial were the 49er, OD14 (one design Int 14), I14, B14, 505, FD, Nautivela Jet, Mach 2, 5000, Iso and Boss. From the pictures it seemed like there was only one of each boat on trial.......... ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 01 Aug 06 at 5:38pm
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Many (or all) classes had two boats, as shown by pics in other mags and by the reports in Aust Sailing (and maybe Seahorse.....couldn't get Y&Y here then). The real historical Q is when is the Osprey going to stop claiming it beat the FD and invented the trapeze, way back when in those trials  ? |
Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 02 Aug 06 at 8:56am
Absolutely not !!!  |
Posted By: Hobbo
Date Posted: 02 Aug 06 at 11:47am
It did in the first race  ,Then they got Ian proctor to "clean up the lines" and added the trapeze. Osprey's didn't invent them, just one of the first to use them within the rules in this country .I love propaganda... ------------- Contender GBR 362 Osprey 1318 - IVplay SSC |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 02 Aug 06 at 12:14pm
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Ohhhhhh no it did not beat the FD in the first trials, or the first race! There outa be a tisk tisk finger wave emoticon! FD results - 4,5,2,7(different crew)3,2,1,1,1,1,1,1,1. Osprey results - 5,6,7,1,8,3,4,9,2,6,3,6,4 Crushing victory to the FD, and that was before the FD got a trapeze or a genoa, but when Osprey had fitted a trap for three races at the suggestion of Sir Peter Scott. Apparently the no-genoa no-trap FD then came to the UK and got a bit of a kicking in light airs and waves, then put the wire and big genny on the for second trials and finished fractionally behind the blown-up Five-Oh but ahead of the Osprey which did well for 3rd. Now, you Ospreyers have all been very naughty and until your webmaster removes those fibs from your website, all the other fastsailers can just call out "it's all just more blinkin; propaganda" every time you call for water, starboard, or say "it's your turn to buy the drinks". I do like the fact that they had the openess and transparency to actually publish this sort of stuff in those days.....the last trials ISAF held (the windsurfing ones) seem to have been a disgrace in terms of allowing the sailing public any info.  |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 02 Aug 06 at 12:20pm
We're just having the discussion elsewehere about how these myths propogate... I never had the heart to remove the cute but false story about how the Cherub Class got its name from the website, just added a statement to say that the evidence was good that it was a myth... |
Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 02 Aug 06 at 12:51pm
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Ah ha Chris, you may very will think so, but we couldn't possibly comment Anyway, wasn't the 5o actually the Coronet, and the 5o5 came a little bit later? |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 03 Aug 06 at 12:29am
| Yep, it was the Coronet, but I thought "blown-up 505" was the best description since not too many people have heard of the Coronet. |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 07 Aug 06 at 2:23pm
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The great travesty of this was that it dumped the FD anyway. Why take out the rolls-royce of sailing, a tweaky, high-performance boat with an international following and replace it with a SMOD? wouldn't it have been better to leave the FD in (as with the Tornado) and bring it up-to-date, then we could have the 49er as a great, £2000 cheaper, high performance skiff, instead of the £2000 more expensive, Olympic hopefuls only job it now is. If the arugment worked for the FD-to-49er, why not Tornado-to-Tiger, Yngling-to-M24, Laser-to-MODS, Laser-radial-to-reefedMODS and 470-to-29erxx??? The i14 & 49er did for the Boss and the L5000 for good reason; they just didn't go far enough (because of cost as a driving force for technology chosen) and were therefore quickly outdated by the development guys (i14, Cherub) and the SMODs (49er, 29er)... the same fate later befell the L4000, Buzz, Spice, L3000 etc.. and will probably happen to the RS700, RS800, Vago, Xenon etc... not enough take up and "stuck in time" SMODness of build standards and technology means they will be out paced, out-gunned and eventually, out sold, by the dev class boys or by the next SMOD to come along that pushes the boundaries of technology the way the x9er series of Musto Skiff have. ------------- Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Aug 06 at 2:48pm
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The reason the Tornado could change and the Dutchman couldn't is that the state of the art in the catamaran platform hasn't changed that much since the Tornado ( a boat if not ahead of its time certainly right at the forefront) was designed. By contrast with the FD there was nothing about the boat that was worth retaining towards a modern platform. Best it should be appereciated for what it is - updating it would kinda be like putting wide wheels, spoilers and the like on a vintage Bentley.
Something I've noticed is that we're starting to see quite a few more 49ers being club sailed as the necessary skills become more widespread. Unfair to call it Olympic hopefuls only. The Boss and 5 tonner et al died not so much because they were about 15 years behind the pace when they were designed, never mind being quickly outdated by the development guys, but because they just weren't very good boats. There are plenty of far more outdated classes doing very nicely thankyou. While people may admire the build standards and so on of the development boats relatively few people are prepared to shell out the extra cash that such build standards require in off the shelf boats. We're certainly never going to outsell the SMODs. New Cherubs, for instance, aren't quite rushing out of the boatbuilders shops... I do think the lifespan of SMOD classes will be interesting, but I doubt that the latest new thing will be such a big deal with Vagos and Xenons and things. The original Topper is scarcely suffering... More likely that there will be updates every few years if new materials/techniques become available. If, for instance, rs400 sales start getting too low I'd wonder about a next generation RS400 with a new plastic rig and a bigger kite. Maybe a slightly smaller main too... |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 07 Aug 06 at 3:33pm
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Just for the record the Musto Skiff was designed before the RS700 ... ------------- |
Posted By: ssailor
Date Posted: 07 Aug 06 at 3:55pm
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But the 700 is still soo much better
------------- Any one in need of quality carbon fibre work (tillers etc) at decent prices! Int 14 Gbr 1244 'Nucking Futs' The New Port rule!!. |
Posted By: BBSCFaithfull
Date Posted: 07 Aug 06 at 5:09pm
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Hmmm someone give ssailor a shake!
------------- Greatfully Sponsored By www.allgoodfun.com Int 14 GBR 1503!! |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 08 Aug 06 at 3:22am
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They tried to give the FD an update by turning it into the Mach 2; FD hull with wings about one metre, fathead main, big assy, twin traps, smaller jib. There's probably not much more you could do. Although apparently quite quick, it scored lower than the original FD in the trials and most FDers think it was a step a long way too far for something which still couldn't rival the 49er in terms of age and pace. |
Posted By: Bumble
Date Posted: 09 Aug 06 at 8:34pm
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This is all and old thing decided and placed in history for later lamenting but...... the scores were not based on who won a race in what ot why, but how well the assesors felt the dinghies tested fitted the IYRU's wish list for a 'new style', 'skiff like' blaster - representing the sport in an exciting and more visually moving way - good, very good etc. The 49er won because of its ethos, not its speed. As a sailor I would rather watch the local Ents battle out the tactical conudrums of a light weather day than the skiffies try and stay up right in a gale. The choice wasn't made for me though, but to possibly appeal to those who don't sail and prevent sailing being axed from a competition which doesn't need it as much as sailing needs it. |