Dinghy development: Moths

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Moths

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2054
Printed Date: 16 Aug 25 at 12:11pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com

Topic: Moths

Posted By: Rupert
Subject: Moths
Date Posted: 28 Jul 06 at 10:02am

Following the International Moth taking to the skies and becoming an aeroplane, so moving it out of the reach of average sailors on small water, has the time come to re introduce the Moth roughly as it was pre unification, with a 5' max beam, a min waterline beam, 7m2 of sail and a light minimum weight? The Americans have kept the class alive, in a way, with the Classic Moths, but they seem more interested in recreating 1960's designs. I would picture something with a more modern rig and hull shape.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Replies:

Posted By: Jamie600
Date Posted: 28 Jul 06 at 10:11am

Sounds like a British Moth!

Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Jul 06 at 10:17am

As a British Moth sailor, I can safely say I was picturing a development class, rather than the ultimate treelined river one design! I'm sure 74 years of hull design development could be put to good use, or even the 46 years since the Europe was designed.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Posted By: Nemo
Date Posted: 28 Jul 06 at 10:25am

Whilst I would definately keep the Int Moth as open as possible to lead the way in development, I agree that that this makes it less and less appealing to the masses. I have thought for a while that it would be good to create (yet another!) spin off restricted development class from the Moth based on earlier, less extreme designs. I was imagining the late 70's/early 80's designs - fat-but-with-wings and scow designs. I think the popularity of the Blaze shows that this is the kind of thing the majority of sailors want, but they've had to update once already - which shows the problems SMODs face.

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 28 Jul 06 at 10:42am

I think the chances of starting an open rule class in the UK these days is just about zero.

Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 28 Jul 06 at 1:46pm

Originally posted by Rupert

so moving it out of the reach of average sailors on small water

It's been that for a long time. I speak as an "average sailor" who bought an International Moth and attempted to learn to sail it on a lake.

Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 28 Jul 06 at 2:23pm

Nemo said "I think the popularity of the Blaze shows that this is the kind of thing the majority of sailors want, but they've had to update once already - which shows the problems SMODs face".

You don't have to be a SMOD one design to see occasional changes in 'one designs' make sense. Fireball - originally no spinni or trapeze, only wood. Phantom - originally only ply and a metal stick with an old Fireball main. Many other examples out there. One of the posisble failings of many SMOD's is that they are a snapshot in time - never developing whatsoever as manufactureres see no need to 'tinker' with a money machine. Then as the class appears dated (needelessly) they churn the market with a 'better' class.

As a class we started with a rig that was powerful but only gorilla's with big attitude could sail it in a F4+ -refining the sail and reducing the area transformed it. This is an example of a worthwhile update ! However Blaze hulls are ALL out of the same mould, all use the same stick and a single suppler sail. This keeps things relatively inexpensive but we do review the boat from time to time and will no doubt do so in the future as well. WE intend to be there in 20 years time but you do need a strong CA !

Blaze '720'

Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Jul 06 at 2:34pm

Originally posted by JimC

I think the chances of starting an open rule class in the UK these days is just about zero.

Sadly, you are probebly right. Is this because the cost of developing a decent rig is so high? I think the Americans got round this by supplying a one design rig for thir classic Moths, and allowing lots of wacky hull shapes under it.

As for classes with wings...how many Lasers sell compared to Blazes?

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 28 Jul 06 at 2:43pm

As for classes with wings...how many Lasers sell compared to Blazes?

Very few of course - and very few Moths as well but that is hardly the point. Lots of people drive the ford focus - not a bad car of course but it would be exceedingly boring if that was all that was available .....

We could as easily say that the original Topper outsells the Laser in the UK - or that the Optimist has the greatest following at its Nationals. The Moth like the I14 has led development for many decades and has infuenced many many classes across the planet, spawning a lot of them in their wake. Its probabaly unlikely that a new development class will result but if it does it will be because people want that to happen.

Each to their own ?

Blaze '720'

Posted By: Nemo
Date Posted: 28 Jul 06 at 2:43pm

Originally posted by blaze720

Nemo said "I think the popularity of the Blaze shows that this is the kind of thing the majority of sailors want, but they've had to update once already - which shows the problems SMODs face".

You don't have to be a SMOD one design to see occasional changes in 'one designs' make sense. Fireball - originally no spinni or trapeze, only wood. Phantom - originally only ply and a metal stick with an old Fireball main. Many other examples out there. One of the posisble failings of many SMOD's is that they are a snapshot in time - never developing whatsoever as manufactureres see no need to 'tinker' with a money machine. Then as the class appears dated (needelessly) they churn the market with a 'better' class.

As a class we started with a rig that was powerful but only gorilla's with big attitude could sail it in a F4+ -refining the sail and reducing the area transformed it. This is an example of a worthwhile update ! However Blaze hulls are ALL out of the same mould, all use the same stick and a single suppler sail. This keeps things relatively inexpensive but we do review the boat from time to time and will no doubt do so in the future as well. WE intend to be there in 20 years time but you do need a strong CA !

Blaze '720'

You're right - I should have said One Designs, not SMODs. But the problem is probably worse for SMODs because the manufacturer has the final say. Congrats to the Blaze class for pushing through the changes.

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 28 Jul 06 at 2:47pm

Originally posted by Rupert

Is this because the cost of developing a decent rig is so high?

Don't reckon so. Just a question of going to a sailmaker and mast builder who work well together and have experience in a reasonably similar open rule boat. I would put the effort and cost in getting hull and things like rig position, board location etc as being higher.

Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 28 Jul 06 at 3:44pm

Originally posted by Rupert

Is this because the cost of developing a decent rig is so high?

No. One-off racing keelboats are common enough. Sail- and spar-makers know enough to make something decent for them without needing prototypes.

The reason you will probably never see a new development class is because it is almost impossible to get together enough like-minded souls to make it happen. It takes a lot of effort to run a class, let alone start one. People buy into, say, Merlins, because there are lots of existing events in nice places. People bought into, say, RS200s because there was the marketing muscle to establish the class. How are you going to establish a new development class?

Historically, these classes started because a bunch of guys in a club decided, we all want to sail something like this, and they went and built a bunch of them. Then a bunch of guys at a nearby club went, hey, like the look of that. And just a handful of such classes grew out of the huge numbers of local classes that used to exist, and are still around today. But now, the dynamics are completely different. You need the budget of a company to start a new class.

Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 28 Jul 06 at 10:46pm

Also, importantly, in those days people didn't mind going into their garages with sheets of plywood, a saw and some glue. How many people want a wooden boat now, let alone the hassle of building it? Even the development classes such as Merlins are becoming dominated by manufactured f.r.p. boats.

p.s. meant to add that I'd nonetheless love a Scow Moth! I could sail one of those, unlike the skinnies...