Most Influential Person in Dinghy History
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Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2052
Printed Date: 16 Aug 25 at 12:28pm
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Topic: Most Influential Person in Dinghy History
Posted By: Nemo
Subject: Most Influential Person in Dinghy History
Date Posted: 27 Jul 06 at 9:48am
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Who has been the most influential person in the history of dinghy sailing? Some suggestions: Uffa Fox, Jack Holt, Ian Proctor, Frank Bethwaite, Phil Morrison, Bruce Kirby, John Spencer, Ian Howlett, Paul Elvstrom, Hobie Alter, Nathanael Herreshoff, John Westell, Jim Saltonstall? Anyone else? My list is UK biased and undoubtedly there are other Americans, Australians and Europeans who could be considered. Cast your vote! |
Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Jul 06 at 12:03pm
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1) Fox (wrote the books that influenced everyone)
2) Spencer (started the lightweight revolution) 3) Holt (the dinghy boom boats) 4) Ben Lexcen (Bob Miller) 18s revolution, Contender and thus Laser 5) Bethwaite (new wave) |
Posted By: Nemo
Date Posted: 27 Jul 06 at 12:20pm
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Good call on Lexcen, but I don't think he'd make my top 5. Proctor would though, with the Topper, Wayfarer, numerous successful Merlin Rockets and N12 and his aluminium mast exploits. Surely Bethwaite should be knighted for services to sailing (designs, the book, the coaching, his children)? Agree with Uffa at No 1, he is the daddy of dinghy sailing, whilst Spencer is the daddy of 'skiffs' (not the Oz definition). |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 Jul 06 at 12:33pm
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Morgan Giles would have to be up there, for me, slightly below Uffa. He was the main designer of 14's in the early days, and it was from his boats that Uffa saw how to improve things. Post war, Proctor and Holt are well up there, but Peter Milne's influence with the Fireball in making fast sailing available to all can't be discounted. Phil Morrison would then have to come in as the most influential british designer since, but he hasn't managed quite so well on the international stage. As for sailors, Elvstrom tops my list. On the more local, non olympic scale, Eric Twiname had a tremendous effect on the way we all handle boats today, yet most people won't have heard of him. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 27 Jul 06 at 12:41pm
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Stewart Morris - His tactics textbooks are still an easy and refreshing read and were the ones that really got people thinking about racing in the way we do today. A massive influence. |
Posted By: MikeBz
Date Posted: 27 Jul 06 at 1:57pm
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It does depend on whether you're thinking of designers or sailors. For designers JimC's list hits the nail right on the head. For sailors it's Elvström by a mile IMHO. Mike |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 27 Jul 06 at 2:02pm
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Ouch, cutting it down to five is tough. It's also very hard to get an international list.....Morrison is one of the great designers but he's basically a UK designer. It's interesting how much "influence" seems to get down to marketing and design skill combined, not design brilliance alone. For example, Uffa didn't have the first planing boat. I don't think either Frank or Julian Bethwaite (excellent as they are) have won a championship with their designs in any open-design class outside Cherubs (the 18 wins came after new designs were banned from the class). Their overall influence is enormous and of course the 49er kicked serious in the ISAF trials, but in terms of numbers of winning Oz skiff/development designs Nash may stand alone. So my pick..... 1) Uffa. Not 'cause he planed first (he didn't) but because his books popularised the dinghy and he made a very fine boat. 2) Paul Elvstrom. Not just because he took sailing to a different level, but because he showed that dinghy sailors were the world's best by winning the Star and 5.5m worlds - that shocked the sailors of the time. 3) Holt and Moore. Have to be taken as a partnership; without Moore's marketing and organisation Holt may not have been anything like as influential. The performance of the Hornet's sliding seat in the first ISAF doublehander trials spurred the FD, 505 and Osprey to bring on the trap (which was not invented for the Osprey, which did not win the trials despite what their website says). 4) Frank and Julian Bethwaite. 5) William F. Crosby. The Snipe was the first really popular international dinghy; it showed the way to chine home-made designs and must have influenced others; it even lead to the VJ which was THE Australian trainer class and (after being flattened, up rigged, lightened and fitted with twin sliding seats) had enormous influence on skiff design by getting Syd Corser to commission Len Randell to design a "big VJ" which obliterated all comers in the 14s (then as now the only widespread Skiff class in Oz) and set the basic style that won all the way to the "Open" 14 worlds of '79. However, there are many other people who seem to have had enormous influence on the sport. They include; Ian Bruce and Bruce Kirby. The Laser, top clean simple production I-14s, and Ian had (and has) a lot of influence on the Bethwaites.....hm Ok, not exactly unknowns! Morrison, Proctor, etc.....but their influence outside the UK isn't up to the excellence of their skills. Ruth Lindemann - daughter of the man who invented klegecell foam, she created what were probably the first sandwich 'glass dinghies (1955). Spencer- but there were earlier boats of equal weight and performance around, and their designers (Charlie Cunningham of the Gwen 12, father of Lindsay, and a group lead by Peter Mander) were also very influential. Andy Paterson and John Claridge. Strange to put rivals as a pair, but it seems they (along with other British Mothies of the '70s and '80s ie Claridge, Eyre, Cox) showed the world how well skinny boats worked, then maybe kicked off the foilers (I think and assume Wardie etc directly followed AP's boat but I haven't heard directly and the Magnum T foil was clearly an influence). Cortland and Heyniger - the Sunfish changed the way Americans think of dinghy sailing and helped spur the Laser and Windsurfer. Peter Mander - Won NZ's first gold medal and first 2 world titles, sparking off the whole Kiwi international thing. Convinced 18 foot skiff sailors of the value of traps and lightweight boats with the 90kg Intrigue of 1952. Pushed the R Class, the first really lightweight Kiwi class, hard. Michael Nash. Changed the design of Skiffs by introducing NS14 dinghy theories in the '80s. Some unknown Euro Mothie and Richard Court; one created the wing, the other made it famous in 18s (although the R Class had been trapping from wings for some time and Sydney 18s had a truce to not use them to save $$$). Rob Roy Macgregor and Paul Butler; one started the first international small sailboat class (the Canoes) and the other created a 30in by 16' 45kg (approx) hollow-sparred cam-cleated sliding-seat fully-battened flyer by 1886. Manfred Curry. and Gulcher and Van Essen; the FD may have been more important than we often think. Ben's Taipan, like most 18s, may have made more noise than really having influence. The chine lightweight revolution had been in all the other skiffs earlier, and the 18s went back to round-bilge heavier boats for years afterwards. Whether that was because the skiffies were too conservative or whether the big boats were faster is a bone of contention among those who were there (Taipan's crew goes one way, the guy who took her over to win the nationals votes the other). Bruce Kirby denies straight-out that the Laser was influenced by the Contender, which is surprising. But the Contender did signal the arrival of the flat, light hard chine boat (OK, in the later versions the chines were rounded with a log and ISAF didn't allow it to be as light as Ben wanted....but it's the thought that counts!) Stewart Morris? Which books??? |
Posted By: Nemo
Date Posted: 27 Jul 06 at 2:39pm
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All interesting stuff and I can't disagree with any of it. All those mentioned have played an enourmous part in shaping sailing (glad I'm not the only one not to have heard of Morris though!). I figure the top 5 would have to be people who's influence has changed the way we all approach the sport. After much deliberation I have settled on the following (for now). 1. Uffa Fox - the leading light and most vocal member of the era that started the sport. 2. Jack Holt (with Beecher Moore) - the most popular designer during the 'golden' era. Introduced sailing to the masses. 3. Frank Bethwaite - started the NS14 class which has developed so many ideas, the Tasar, the 9ers (via his son), his book, his Olympic stuff etc 4. Paul Elvstrom - took sailing to the next level and has thereby influenced all subsequent training and coaching. His books, sails and bailer all survive too. 5. Bruce Kirby/Hobie Alter/ Ian Proctor - All designed iconic (and revolutionary)boats that sell by the bucket load. Proctor also popularised the aluminium mast and the plastic boat (although I have a feeling making the Topper from polypropolene wasn't his idea). But I'll probably change my mind in five minutes... |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 Jul 06 at 2:58pm
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I don't think it is Stewart Morris CT249 hasn't heard of, but his books! Morris is the greatest Int 14 sailor of all time. Maybe Austin Farrar should be on the lists - his 14's were the fastest for a decade or more, and his wing masts have inspired some very, very fast machines... ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE
Date Posted: 27 Jul 06 at 3:34pm
Frank Mighetto  ------------- 
http://www.formula18alive.com - www.formula18alive.com |
Posted By: Jamie600
Date Posted: 27 Jul 06 at 4:34pm
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I'd like to put forward Peter Scott - the person credited with the invention of the trapeze back in (I think) 1930's on the International 14. That's certainly something that transformed the sport then and is still prevailent today |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Jul 06 at 6:59pm
| Interestingly the trapeze seems to have been invented at least three times: in 1938 in England by Scott and Winter, inspired by Beecher Moore's harness-less bell rope on the Rater, in or before 1935 on M Class (~18 footers) in New Zealand, and first of all, by 1902 in Singapore where the local sailors (not westerners) used a "Tali Dogang" - a trapeze complete with harness on their "Kolek" racing Canoes. (reserach by ct_249) |
Posted By: Prince Buster
Date Posted: 27 Jul 06 at 7:31pm
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Uffa's a legend - think where we'd be without a kicking strap on our boats today??!
------------- international moth - "what what?" |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Jul 06 at 8:14pm
Maybe you should include Mark, who designed the real start of the Bethwaite series with the Medium Dribbly NS14 and won the 1970 NS14 Champs with it. Just because bnowadays he "just" wins Laser Masters Worlds titles you shouldn't forget his design achievements... |
Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 27 Jul 06 at 8:39pm
Don't you bloody dare !!!!!  |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 28 Jul 06 at 3:41am
The Dribbly was a good boat - as a Tasar sailor I'm not biased against it  - but
it may not have been an the totally influential as claimed. Other designers at the time, also working frm the Jav hull, were creating boats that may actually be closer to the normal modern design, in terms of where they were trying to go.The Carrack just 3 years later is the boat closest to the camera (right) in pic 20.6(b) of Bethwaite (p 251). It had just won the first of its 2 nationals with 1,1,DNF,1,1 in the chop it was supposedly slow in. Carrack was a very very different boat from the Dribbly. Like other boats (the Jav-inspired Rae design next to it etc) it had more U ( as much U as John Maconaghy could get into it along the centreline where the Dribbly was Veed); it had chines only in the back 3' where the Dribbly was chined almost all the way like a Spencer; a dead flat transom apart from small curves at the chines where the Dribbly had 1 1/2 to 3" of Vee, U entry, the stern was getting narrower when Dribblys were getting wider, the U was lifting the chines out of the water..... The Carrack designer's thoughts were much more in line with the modern NS than the Dribbly was. Making the picture a bit muddier is that (after checking the original article from where the pics came, which has 57 more shots) I'm sure the boat labelled "Dribbly Mk III" is actually Togram II, also designed by Downes. The Dribbly III ("Avanti") is the dark boat next to the white Dribbly II ("Tremonia") at the end of the line. The Dribbly remained a great boat - I think they won 2 nationals afterwards - but then the nationals went to a slightly modified Javelin Mk 2. Generally, after having spoken to most of the other designers around that time and looking at results etc, it seems that the Dribbly was a very good (and extremely popular- having 120 IIs and IIIs racing one-offs helps your chances of winning!) boat with few or no bad spots (unlike other designs) but it doesn't seem to have been the outstanding milestone on the path towards the modern NS. I don't mean to be attacking the Bethwaites who are brilliant sailors and designers and good people - but equally I don't want to be unjust to people like Robin Rae, Bruce Hewish, Warwick Downes, Malcolm Eggins as I would be if I believed that they sat back and simply developed the ideas of other people. As Frank has often said, the early NS guys were a smart bunch. One of the very valuable things that this little "5 most influential people" exercise has underlined is that it's not really individuals that create advances, but groups. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 28 Jul 06 at 4:50am
Well, whatever else its influence might or might not have been on other designers and classes it was sure influential on the Bethwaite family design family :-) They do have perhaps a bit more V than could be regarded as mainstream... How much other designers are influenced by the Bethwaite style is perhaps questionable. The early 90s European pseudo skiffs looked as if they'd seen photos of a 49er or B18 sailing, but not looked at or understood the hull shape, and there's not a lot of Bethwaite influence in things like the RS boats... Its certainly true that they've not won much in the open boats since the 70s/early 80s, but on the other hand you have to consider that the remaining open rule classes have something of a tendency towards lightweights, Julian is probably not the same dimensions he was when they won the Cherub Worlds, whilst the other two championship class siblings have preferred to sail one designs. |