Try a Tasar - at 25 stone you may be a bit on the heavy side to be fully race competetive but it's fast, stable and great fun. Also it's prettyy simple to rig and sail.

It sails with a larger crew much better than a Laser 11 and is much more comfy.

Forget the 505, 470 etc suggestions - too complex and you could easily get into trouble with a 505 (powerful beast)

The Dart 16 is great fun off a beach but I'm sure you'd rapidly tire of it.It's also a bit of alump to drag around on shore.

I agree the 4000 might be a bit much after level 2. I'nm thinking more along the lines of an RS400 - still achallenge at our level, but they are also quite forgiving and can take 25 stone easily enough.

But what do they sail at your nearest club? If you're to keep sailing regularly you really want to sail from a club and probably race (even if you don't view yourself as a club-type person - a lot of us didn't!). Getting something that's already popular locally means you'll get more tips and support, plus some benchmarks to aim at. I'd pay the local club(s) a visit tomorrow (Sunday). Just walk in and talk to people - unless you're very unlucky you'll be surprised how happy people are to talk about their boats.

Dart 16 is a very good choice for a first catamaran. It's a good beginner - intermediate boat.

At 25 stone combined you might want to also consider the Dart 18. Very good performance, large UK fleet, plentiful spares and secondhand boats.

oh dear please dont start a cat vs dinghy arguement please please.

The cat v dinghy argument is basically about what you want from a small racing boat

Cat Pros

• Fast
• Relatively stable

Cat Cons

• Not usable in restricted waters
• Not as tactical - Making a tack costs a huge amount of time so they tend to tack out to the lay line and come back to the mark with little regard for wind shifts etc
• Not the same seat of the pants feel to them when sailing them - some people may regard that as a plus!
• Can be tough to get back upright after a capsize.

Dinghy Pros

• Very manouverable - good for restricted waters.
• Huge range of types to choose from.
• The faster ones give a great feeling of speed - even if they aren't as fast as a cat.

Dinghy Cons

• More unstable than a cat - particularly the faster ones, may mean more swimming lessons!

There is no correct answer - you need to choose something that will fit your own needs and give it a go!

Have a look at the http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/boatfinder.php3 - Boat Finder  on Noble Marine's website.  All the information you need should be there, for the vast majority of the UK's dinghy classes.

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But that's true of ANY high performance boat

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Disagree totally. Tacking is not as quick as a dinghy. However, you still need to tack on shifts if you are going to lead the pack. You still need to be tactically aware. The days of banging the corners are long gone, especially true with the modern generation of cats. The tactics played out in the F18 and T fleets are absolutely awesome to watch if you are at all knowledgeable about what is happening. (And all at 15 knots plus)

I'm sure the Cat v's Dinghy tactics thing has been done before on this site. If I remember rightly, the conclusion reached was that the faster you go, the higher boat speed comes as a %, the lower taking every tactical oppotunity. Deciding whether to tack or not, as one example of tactics, presumebly stays the same, but actually putting the tack in is more likely to happen in a small dinghy, as it is quicker, and you can always tack back if you get it wrong, without loosing too much, if anything.

Writing that makes me think that getting the tactics right is probebly more important in a cat, as you pay more for going wrong.

Dart 16 - modern, simple, almost ding proof

Dart 18 - slightly less modern, simple, plentiful racing/spares, GRP easily repaired

Hobie 16 - old design, heavy (for size), simple, plentiful

Hobie 18 - slightly less modern than D16, heavy (for size), has boards so is not as simple as other 3, almost bulletproof GRP, not much OD racing

Two major changes:

Hull shapes have changed from the traditional vee to a low rocker, reverse sheer, flattish bottom. High aspect daggers are more the norm. As a result the newer designs tack much, much faster and more easily. The use of modern materials has also resulted in the ability to get the weight out of the ends of the hulls and boats are faster through and out of tacks. Not quite dinghy like but very close.

The other change is the ubiquitous use of assymetrics on cats. This has raised the downwind tactics phase of a race to a whole new level. The sheer speed differential between getting it right downwind and not is huge. This has raised everyone's game.

On the dinghy front, I bought an RS400 last winter and have just started racing it. I'm much more used to playing around in  waves on a windsurf board, but still find the 400 great fun to sail, and the speeds in a reasonable blow are fast enough for me - for now! I'm failry large at 6' and 13.5st plus kit, while my other half is 5'2", and about 8.5st. This puts us right on the racing weight (as long as I keep eating pies) and yet the sheeting loads for her are no problems at all. The spinnaker espeacially she finds a doddle. Me however, I fight that main sheet till my fingers bleed!

So, 400's are good fun, but what will you enjoy more? I reckon that's up to you.

Exactly, you need to understand what will happen, what is happening and what may happen to decide what to do.  Getting it wrong will loose loads of time and distance (as you are travelling so quick).

I use it as the WIM TLA (Will Is May) when I had a crew as we discussed the plan for the next leg, so, the Tide will be with us, the wind is increasing, and may back on us. 

I agree that in many situations going for speed IS the way to go. But again, it's tactics isn't it? It's about KNOWING when the right tactic is speed and when the right tactic is play the shifts. The more modern cats have simply allowed the playing the shifts option more readily IF YOU WANT TO.

I also agree that in the dinghy V cats culture of argument, a standard mantra seems to be that "dinghies are more tactical than cats" - it happened again in this very thread. It's almost as if just repeating it makes it true, and that in some way it is BETTER than sailing fast?  You're right though, there is NOTHING wrong with being a speed guru, after all, racing is also about speed isn't it?

I think another thing non cat sailors do not understand is that it sometimes pays to go the wrong way up the beat(in wind angle terms)  if you can get more wind(to a certain extent).  I know that if I fly a hull on my inter 17 in the lighter / semi-trapping conditions, the speed jumps by a knot almost instantly, so going the wrong way for a little more wind may actually pay !

Ummm just to pile in late here . . lostatsea, are you expecting/hoping to race?  It seems to me that all the answers here assume that the answer is 'yes'. 

If 'no', then think again . . . getting a non-extreme cat like the Hobie or Dart 16 to sail around in for jollies is probably fine . . getting an RS400 for cruising would be a handful, and quite a big cash investment, even second-hand . .  .and getting a 505 or a L4000 would be crazy, IMHO, given your relative lack of experience.

If you DO think you might fancy racing, and want a boat that has some pace without being too much of a handful, then any of the recommendations here are great, with two provisos:

1) try before you buy, either on a Neilson holiday or locally, and try racing (crewing for another sailor would be good) to see if it's for you

2) take account of where you will be able to race, and what classes are raced there.  This will massively influence how much you enjoy the sport, WAY beyond the choice between say an Osprey,a Fireball and a L3000.

If you don't want to race, ask yourself the question - am I going to sail for jollies once or twice a month, or am I going to enjoy sailing every week and really developing my skills?  If the former, then a reasonably stable boat like the Laser2000 or Lark might be right up your street.  If the latter, then go for one of the more 'race-oriented' boats here.

Just to re-iterate - I have seen lots of people give up on sailing and leave expensive boats mouldering at the waters edge because they haven't found a way to make it fit in with their daily/weekly/monthly lifestyle - have a good hard think about this before you splash your cash!

Good luck,

Sounds to me like you're ready for club racing now - it is where one starts racing, after all. Sure, there will be hot shots out there too, but it's for them to be tolerant so long as you aren't claiming rights of way you don't have (like I did in my first race!)

I reckon you should try an RS400 - forgiving if you get it wrong, fast if you get it right. But it would be good for both of you to get some crewing in with experienced sailors at first - it'll speed your progress in the long term.

im back again and having read through all this i realized noones suggested the GP14 i know its an old boat but it has a symetric kite, will keep going in a blow, can be cruised in if you don't like racing after all and is comfortable to hike from (having just done a week in one im fairly sure about this).