Holding the tiller extension
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1990
Printed Date: 16 Aug 25 at 1:37am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Holding the tiller extension
Posted By: Philsy
Subject: Holding the tiller extension
Date Posted: 11 Jul 06 at 8:35am
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Hi, I'm trying to adapt my helming technique to the modern RYA 'crossed
daggers' method. However, I'm stuggling to change the habit of a lifetime - ie. having the tiller extension over my rear shoulder - and find that the extension is hitting my chest, thus restricting the amount of movement I can make with it. Any tips? Phil |
Replies:
Posted By: Offshoretiger
Date Posted: 11 Jul 06 at 9:40am
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What boat are you sailing? and do you normaly hike when your helming? Only time i used to find having the tiller over my chest was anoying was when it was to light to hike, as soon as I was hiked a bit it stopped being a problem ------------- ...yesterday I couldnt spell enginner...now I are one!...... |
Posted By: Philsy
Date Posted: 11 Jul 06 at 9:45am
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Hi, thanks for the reply. It's a Xenon. I hike if there's enough wind, but when
there isn't, like you, I have the problem. Phil ------------- |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 11 Jul 06 at 10:12am
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Hi Philsy, I generally find that holding the extension across your chest works very well. When it is windy you are hiked out and it is up and out the way, when it is light you should be getting forward which helps eliminate the excessive length of the extension. If you find this is a problem it may be worth you getting a telescopic extension that you can shorten as required. I find that 'pan handle' style use of the tiller extension is really awkward (but I have always sailed boats where it is more comfy holding it in front of you). Paul ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Philsy
Date Posted: 11 Jul 06 at 10:17am
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Hi Paul
Moving forward certainly helps, but in the Xenon there's a large hoop for the mainsheet which limits the helm's position somewhat. I don't use the 'pan handle' method but rather hold the extension like a dagger, in my back hand so, in light winds, it is over my back shoulder - that was how I was taught, er, 30 years ago. It works fine, but I'd like to change to the modern method. Cheers Phil ------------- |
Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 11 Jul 06 at 11:06am
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Isn't the xenon a two man boat? Upwind in the light stuff the crew should balance the boat so you can still sit far enough out to be comfortable and see the jib luff. Downwind you need to sit to leeward so the crew can see the spinnaler luff. In both cases you should be able to find a comfortable position by adjusting where you sit. Personally I prefer a longer extension as it allows you more freedom but can get in the way. No reason why you cant move forward of the hoop in the light stuff (better trim anyway) and just slide back when you want to tack.
------------- Garry Lark 2252, Contender 298 www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk |
Posted By: Ian99
Date Posted: 11 Jul 06 at 1:33pm
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The "crossed daggers" technique is only really useful for going round marks and very gusty or windy conditions as it gives you greater control over the mainsheet as you have now two hands available for this vital steering control. Holding the tiller in this position in light to medium winds is actually quite slow as you unintentionally move the rudder with every small wave disrupting the flow of water over it and hence slowing the boat down. You will see quite a few of the top sailors holding the tiller against the deck (in the "pan handle" position, but held from above) to stop this happening in these conditons. |
Posted By: Philsy
Date Posted: 11 Jul 06 at 4:50pm
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Interesting point, but doesn't the RYA now teach people to sail this way
only? By a happy coincidence I was out photographing a sailing instructor this afternoon (long story...) and he gave me some tips on this. He admitted that it's a difficult to learn to tack this way, but it's worth perservering. Phil ------------- |
Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 11 Jul 06 at 5:30pm
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Am I being really dull here? I have no idea what you're talking about! I assume Pan handle means like holding a frying pan but crossed daggers (seems a little dangerous to me)? Someone please post some pictures! ------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 11 Jul 06 at 5:31pm
i always sail with the tiller over my shoulderin the "dagger position". i havent heard of the crossed swords or whatever the new way is . i dont find it a problem if its over my shoulder because in the feva the tiller is quite short. but in the light i prefer to pin it to the deck as ian said.------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: Calum_Reid
Date Posted: 11 Jul 06 at 5:34pm
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http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/photos/?s=64&PID=13158
Is the pan handle way. ------------- 
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Posted By: phantom871
Date Posted: 11 Jul 06 at 5:35pm
DONT CROSS THE STREAMS ------------- If its bent pull harder |
Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 11 Jul 06 at 5:39pm
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Like that picture eh? ------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |
Posted By: Calum_Reid
Date Posted: 11 Jul 06 at 5:41pm
over shoulder one. P.S. A pic of the contnder in its element -------------
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Posted By: Calum_Reid
Date Posted: 11 Jul 06 at 5:43pm
Across Body Dagger sorta thing.  -------------
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Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 11 Jul 06 at 5:45pm
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the contender one is what i do ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 11 Jul 06 at 5:45pm
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I hold it like the Laser dude (except I usually look happier) so I have max chance of getting the end stuck through the trapeze ring or wrong side of the elastic I actually always have the tiller ext in my left paw as I broke my wrist a few years ago (motorbike crash ------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |
) and can't uncleat the main with my left arm in anything more than 10kts.Posted By: ColH
Date Posted: 11 Jul 06 at 8:41pm
Nice transom ------------- |
Posted By: Calum_Reid
Date Posted: 11 Jul 06 at 8:50pm
Hahah that would be me. It had been absolutly fantastic conditions all day but had dropped right off by the time the race started and i was getting slaughtered by bloody solo's! -------------
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Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 12 Jul 06 at 11:51pm
| If you helm from the trapeze you have to hold the tiller across the shoulder, if you try and bring it in front of the body it hits the trapeze wire. Also if trapezeing you have to switch to pan handle grip just before the tack since the tiller extension is too long to go through between tiller and mainsheet, or if its a twin tiller extension boat ie 49er you have to drop the tiller extension as you go across. Even some non trapeze helm boats have tillers which are too long for the gap and you have to switch to pan handle grip before the tack ie Laser4000. Boats with bridles on the transom ie Lasers, RS200s and many more require the tiller extension to go forwards through the gap, these boats are best sailed with the across the chest dagger grip. If anybody out there sails a centre main boat with a pan handle grip I can assure you that you'll go much faster if you switch to a dagger grip. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 13 Jul 06 at 11:30am
I sail mine with the 'across the chest' dagger grip. Any other way just feels wrong now. For information I sailed my Laser the same way (and had my own unique tacking style which made the other Laser 'purists' wince). Have to be careful with the Blaze though, there are all thos nice continuous controls to stuff the extension through...and the tramps ropes too.... Getting there though, just need to mast gybing and all will be happy. Paul ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 13 Jul 06 at 12:42pm
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Well, you don't have to. I dont. I'd rather get the stick caught on the trapeze wire than in my ear/throat/neck as I move back and forward along the rail as the wind changes strength. My extention is as long as possible (just clears the shrouds) and when light wind trapezing it's only just long enough but when the wind gets up it will be bouncing of the trapeze wire. I don't swap grip to tack either, I just feed the tiller through the tack and then drop the extension, not picking it up again until just before hooking on on the new tack. ------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 13 Jul 06 at 1:38pm
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The Merricks and Walker High Performance Sailing video promotes switching back to "pan handle" grip in more demanding conditions as it allows for more control and movement of the tiller to be made. Also highlighted was that whilst using this technique, it didn't really affect dumping the mainsheet because if you have the mainsheet, sheeted in tight with your arm towards your chest, letting it out by an arms length in any conditions is enough to dump the mainsheet substaintially and by dumping it any more you lose out on boat speed. ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |