skiff or no skiff
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1973
Printed Date: 16 Aug 25 at 4:02am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: skiff or no skiff
Posted By: carshalton fc
Subject: skiff or no skiff
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 11:41am
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this whole skiff thing is getting into quite a few topics so i thought i would make its own topic. there are a few oppinions out there: 1, skiffs are only 12ft-18ft ( ie,ausie boats) 2, boats like the 49er,800 etc are skiffs aswell 3, a skiff is just a flat boat that can plann upwind which includes boats like the 4k, 505 etc personally i would say that boats like the 49er, 800, 29er, cherub etc are skiffs cos they are all based on the ausie's boats just toned down so normal people can sail them. happy posting ------------- International 14 1503 |
Replies:
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 12:06pm
you calling is Cherub lot normal???
------------- Needs to sail more... |
Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 12:07pm
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i think the word for u guys is "speical" ------------- International 14 1503 |
Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 12:08pm
Is that Croydon dialect? ------------- http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/index.html - Lancing SC 
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Posted By: Offshoretiger
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 12:41pm
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This was killed to death, dug up and killed some more by the Aussies over on SA several times. Conclusion seemed to be most of the world uses skiff to mean fast asymetric dingy with a fairly distictive and similer hull type because skiff is shorter and easier to type than all that lot. This drives some Aussies nuts as they rekon it can only be used for the Sydney harbor skiff classes and a couple of exeptions and is based on club history But then if you take that argument to its logical conclusion in the UK you can only use the word skiff to mean these:
------------- ...yesterday I couldnt spell enginner...now I are one!...... |
Posted By: fizzicist
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 12:49pm
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Maybe a look in a dictionary...: skiff https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2Fskiff">
from http://www.dictionary.com - www.dictionary.com I think the key here is flatbottom open boat of shallow draft. i.e. Not a Wayfarer! ------------- Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in beer. |
f)Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 12:55pm
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A wayfarer has a shallow draft and flat bottom compared to a Contessa 26, say... ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: fizzicist
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 1:10pm
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It's not flat bottomed though - it has chines and a ton of freeboard. ------------- Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in beer. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 1:42pm
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And an 18 footer isn't flat bottomed compared to a Sharpie - I think dictionary definitions can only take us so far. And Cherubs have a ton of freeboard too - I don't think that comes into at all! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 2:27pm
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Read up and post your thoughts here.............. If you dare http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=36463&st=0 - http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=364 63&st=0 ------------- 
http://www.formula18alive.com - www.formula18alive.com |
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 2:31pm
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Oh, and the UK do have Skiffs.......... 18s with 12s coming. The US have 18s NZ have 12s and 18s -------------
http://www.formula18alive.com - www.formula18alive.com |
Posted By: jpbuzz591
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 2:34pm
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And the aussies, not enough to count on your hand. ------------- Jp Indoe Contender 518 Buzz591 Chew Valley Sailing club Bristol |
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 2:52pm
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Skiffies have a unique style that you just can not buy
-------------
http://www.formula18alive.com - www.formula18alive.com |
Posted By: feva_sailor
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 3:27pm
does that mean an oppie is a skiff?! ------------- |
Posted By: Offshoretiger
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 3:38pm
not unless you put it though a pencil sharpener, they dont have a pointed bow!! ------------- ...yesterday I couldnt spell enginner...now I are one!...... |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 3:42pm
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That's some pencil sharpner OT.....howver it could be the best thing that ever happened to an Oppi!
------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Offshoretiger
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 3:59pm
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Because it would stop the Oppi being so .................. pointless? ------------- ...yesterday I couldnt spell enginner...now I are one!...... |
Posted By: feva_sailor
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 4:00pm
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yes but then would it classify as a skiff? ------------- |
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 4:08pm
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All you need then is a junior Skiffie........ These guys look like they have potential
-------------
http://www.formula18alive.com - www.formula18alive.com |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 4:12pm
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Reading the pile of ****on the SA forum, it seems that either a Skiff is a type i-of dinghy, ie a name, like Firefly or GP14, or it is a discription of a type of dinghy that has certain characteristics. As one side of the arguement (mainly in Sydney) will never agree with the other (mainly in the rest of the world), we shall just have to let language evolve in the way it does, and see what happens. An analogy would be, I suppose, that I could build myself a 17' pointy ended sailing boat and say it is a canoe, but can't say it is an international canoe, unless it fits the rules. Can I build myself an 18' long dish shaped hull with lots of sail and call it a skiff, but not an 18' skiff as it doesn't fit those rules, or is it an 18' long high performance dinghy, with the word skiff not mentioned at all? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: feva_sailor
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 4:39pm
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there a national 18 that is an 18 dinghy but not a 18 ft skiff will that class as a skiff thogh? ------------- |
Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 7:19pm
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Simple. Can your average traditional classes club sailor get in one for the very first time and get it succesfully round the course in a F4 under control without swimming too much or hurting themselves? Yes? It ain't a skiff.
------------- RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed" Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs" Enterprise GBR21970 Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra" |
Posted By: jpbuzz591
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 7:24pm
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thats sounds like our new definition of a skiff then Iain. If it causes pain for the average club sailor and goes fast, its a skiff ------------- Jp Indoe Contender 518 Buzz591 Chew Valley Sailing club Bristol |
Posted By: BOABS
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 8:53pm
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Just read the first posting and find it quite amusing that someone sailing a Laser4000 would describe the 49er as tamed down!!! |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 10:55pm
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All I see are worms everywhere and bits of twisted metal that might have once been a can...
------------- |
Posted By: Strawberry
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 11:41pm
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The gospel according to St.Rawberry: Skiffs are Australian 12ft, 16ft, and 18ft skiffs, aswell the historical 6ft-22ft skiffs. A skiff class involves unrestricted rigs, a long history, and a particular way of life, not just a charecteristic hull shape. The term "skiff" has been stolen by SMOD manufacturers to market their badly built and badly designed dinghies, with the aim of trying to assosiate them with the "real skiff" performance and culture, so they can make more money. Other types of boat may be based upon "skiffs", and skiff design principles, but are not "real skiffs". They are "skiff like". Anyone who thinks a SMOD can ever be a skiff is just the sort of pleb who is brain-washed by the marketing bullsh*t. When a SMOD manufacturer describes their dinghy as a skiff, do you think they're trying to assosiate it with this:
Or with this:
This is my opinion, and I'm sure you have yours. I'm not going to argue about this with you, or try to persuade you differently. Because frankly, your wrong, and I don't care! This is the word of the Strawb. Sermon over! ------------- Cherub 2649 "Dangerous Strawberry |
Posted By: Calum_Reid
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 11:46pm
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AMEN ------------- 
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Posted By: Strawberry
Date Posted: 07 Jul 06 at 11:55pm
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And whoever said skiffs have to have "flat bottoms" needs to take a look at this:
Maybe you should pop Down-Under and tell the owner of this vessel, that he's unfortunately disillusioned and he doesn't own a skiff after all. ------------- Cherub 2649 "Dangerous Strawberry |
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE
Date Posted: 08 Jul 06 at 6:43am
 ............... -------------
http://www.formula18alive.com - www.formula18alive.com |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 08 Jul 06 at 8:28am
A bit offensive ... So this isn't a skiff then?
or this ...
I think there are boats that claim "skiff" status that are not but I think your view is a little black & white and the world isn't like that. Rick
------------- |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 08 Jul 06 at 10:14am
Exactly! They are high performance, skiff like boats... and in reality I
wouldnt blink an eyelid to someone at the club calling them skiffs but
only because the word has been thrown around so much by the big
manufacturers trying to sell boats its hard not too. I see in the Y&Y advertisements the RS500 is the latest skiff on
the market. Id love to hear someones argument as to why that lays claim
to the name.... ------------- |
Posted By: feva_sailor
Date Posted: 08 Jul 06 at 10:21am
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so does that make the 6ft skiff a proper skiff?i know i is derived from the aussie 6fter but as it has taken on a whole new disign does it really make it a skiff? ------------- |
Posted By: feva_sailor
Date Posted: 08 Jul 06 at 10:22am
oh no i really should get out more ------------- |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 08 Jul 06 at 10:26am
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the 6ft skiff grew out of the historic 6s in much the same way as the
12s 16s and 18s grew out of their respective historic classes. The
difference is that the longers skiffs have been continuosly evolving
wheras the 6s dissapeared for a while and are now playing catchup ------------- |
Posted By: Skiffe
Date Posted: 08 Jul 06 at 10:52am
Word, I'm sure Roake and Mud will be very accommodating in suppling you a couple of new facial features ------------- 12footers. The Only Way to FLY Remember Professionals built the titanic, Amateurs built the ark. |
Posted By: Skiffe
Date Posted: 08 Jul 06 at 10:56am
R, NO ------------- 12footers. The Only Way to FLY Remember Professionals built the titanic, Amateurs built the ark. |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 08 Jul 06 at 12:25pm
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The whole term "skiff" seems to be a lot murkier than some would like to pretend. I'm not a skiffy but I'm interested in history and I hate weazel-worded marketing whackers taking a useful term and making it meaningless by chucking it at everything in sight, so here's a few observations. * If you spend a lot of time looking through the sailing reports of papers, mags and books from the 1860s on, you may find that the use of the term "skiff" for 6s, 8s, 10s, 16s and 18s seems to come surprisingly late, and for a surprisingly long time its application was fairly rare and uncertain. It's not as if it seems to have been around as the universal term for all Aussie "skiffs" forever, and the old timers seem to have been less clear and definite in its use than some imply today. For example, I haven't noticed any contemporary use of "skiff" for Six Footers. I'm not positive it wasn't used, but I can't find an example. There ARE examples of them racing from dinghy clubs, I think. * There is no "skiff shape". Not all skiffs have "unrestricted rigs"; not all had pointed bows (there were champion snub-bowed 12s, 14s and 18s, a "world" champion scow in the 18s, and snub-nosed 16s); there's no one skiff shape, as shown by the difference between a Woof 12 and a B18 and the latest narrow Moth-type 12, let alone all the historical boats, There's been as about as much difference between boats in the skiff heritage classes as there is between dinghies. Many skiffs are not flat bottomed; for years (probably till the '70s) some had deeper Vee than UK dinghies! * If we look at entymology and rely on the original uses of words, 505s, Ents and Lasers aren't dinghies because "dinghies" were working boats used around Mumbai, not plastic racing boats on the Queen Mary reservoir or Sydney Harbour! If we want to get strictly historical maybe the 505 or Laser are better called catamarans because "katamaram" is the Tamil word for monohull raft, not a twin-hull boat. We don't have "trapezes", but Tali Dogangs. We don't have jibs on 505s, but "genoas". We don't have assymetriical spinnakers, but "sphinxers". We don't have "Thames Raters", which some of the old authorities disliked as a term. We don't have "starboard", but "steerboard".  * Historically the term used for 18s etc seems to have changed, the skiff term has shifted, the whole English language changes, so maybe we cannot get too strict about only applying it to 12s, 16s 18s. * Some skiffies may not like letting the term change, but the term has already evolved and the examples above show that skiffies have adopted words that rename articles (trapeze for tali dogang, catamaran, windsurfer) so how can they claim the term "skiffs" can't evolve once more? * That doesn't mean it's fair game to call RS 500 type boats "skiffs" because that means this useful, meaningful and historic term becomes just another weazel-worded whacker's bit of BS word-of-the-month bit of trendy jargon. PS - let me make it clear not all production skiff-type sailing marketng types are wackers!!!!!! |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 08 Jul 06 at 4:26pm
Why - if you can offer some sort of definition then you'd perhaps have a point? My definition would be ... Good power to weight ratio 49er & MPS fit the above as do all the traditional skiffs ... but not all new SMOD who claim the lable meet the above ... Rick ------------- |
Posted By: Strawberry
Date Posted: 08 Jul 06 at 4:58pm
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I would throw into that mix: At least a century of history I think the MPS should be renmaed the MME. That's the Musto Marketing Excercise! ------------- Cherub 2649 "Dangerous Strawberry |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Jul 06 at 5:07pm
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I'm assuming CT249 is the same Mr 249 as Chris 249? Good history lesson, thank you! I have a feeling that whether a Skiff referred originally to a type of boat (like "Fireball") rather than a design type (like "Scow") the genie is now well out of the bottle, and no amount of Aussie whinging is going to put it back in! All we can hope is that the fad for calling dinghies Skiffs will die down, and we can go back to calling things with a bow, transom and centreboard a dinghy. I think Y&Y themselves have much to answer for on this particular trend, changing their for sale section to "dinghies and skiffs", when a skiff is a type of dinghy...
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 08 Jul 06 at 5:35pm
Seems this is destined to become a derivative of many previous SMOD bashing threads ... yawn ... BTW your definition means that the Cherub is not a skiff ... ------------- |
Posted By: Strawberry
Date Posted: 08 Jul 06 at 6:00pm
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You're perfectly right about that. The Cherub isn't a skiff. ------------- Cherub 2649 "Dangerous Strawberry |
Posted By: Calum_Reid
Date Posted: 08 Jul 06 at 6:28pm
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Does this mean Scottish Skiff Racing (SSR) Should become Scottish Skiff and High Performance Dinghy Racing (SSHPDR) doesnt quite roll of the tounge so easily?
P.S. I do agree with Stu and Ben on this one but its become such an accepted term -------------
|
Posted By: 29er397
Date Posted: 08 Jul 06 at 6:37pm
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no it doesn't. It means that some of the sailing population need to accept that no one person 'ownes' or puts meaning to a word. They also have to accept the natural evolution in language, hence we don't speak ye olde english anymore. Fair enough there is a lot of history behind the word but it has also grown to represent a commonly understood description of a type of sailing dinghy, which will never be undone. Why not just accept it and get on with sailing the boats we love. ------------- http://www.kielderwatersc.org - Kielder Water Sailing Club |
Posted By: les5269
Date Posted: 08 Jul 06 at 6:41pm
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We do seem to be forgetting that the original skiffs weren't sailing boats at all they were rowing boats.So if you take definition to the extreme (as we seem to be doing ) no sailing boat is a true "skiff". Personally I don't call my 49er a skiff I call it a 49er!!( if someone asked me what sort of boat it is I call it a high perfomance sailing dinghy ) ------------- 49er 531 & 5000 5025 and a mirror(now gone to mirror heaven)! http://www.grafham.org/" rel="nofollow - Grafham water Sailing Club The greatest inland sailing in the country |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 08 Jul 06 at 7:05pm
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Quite ... 4 hours of MPS sailing a Whitstable in sun & breeze ... Now for a few beers .... ------------- |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 08 Jul 06 at 11:38pm
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"Oh my God, my boat is not a skiff (well according to some people), must phone up y&y tommorrow to put it on the market and sell it........." Does it really matter if a skiff is a skiff or not, by certain definitions this only classifies boats traditionally with "skiff" on the end of the name to be a skiff, ie 12 foot skiff, 18 foot skiff etc. I wouldn't consider buying a 16 foot skiff over a 49er just because traditionally the 16foot skiff can lay claim to being the original 16 foot skiff. I sail my boat because it's what I want to sail and I don't really care whether it falls under a certain category or not....... Maybe I'm being cynical here but has anyone ever considered the fact that the term "skiff" could have been used initially by our friends down under as a marketing ploy and maybe what's happening just now is exactly the same in the UK. Do I lose sleep at night because someone has called an RS500 a skiff? No, because it doesn't bother me at all....... Sorry for being sarcy(ish), had a good sail, going to bed now ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 09 Jul 06 at 1:14am
We "forget" it because it's not true. Apparently it's a 16th century word that comes from the French Esquif, which comes from the italian schifo, a germanic origin term related to "ship", and it refers to a ship's boat....the flat bottomed/pointy bowed rowing boat idea seems to just be a US and British addition in the 1800s. The idea that rowboats are the "real" skiffs is about as valid as saying that only 12s, 16s and 18s are "real" skiffs!  By the way, skiffs don't always plane upwind (as Julian Bethwaite says, defining planing becomes harder the more you look at it, and 12s and 16s are sort of vaguely Moth-ish in that they don't plane upwind all the time), and 12s and 16s don't have self draining cockpits, and terms like "big rig" and "goes fast" are a bit too loose to be of any real use aren't they? So yeah, we can't get too rigid because the language does change. Calling a 49er a skiff seems fine (just a personal opinion). But I've seen several words in this sport become completely useless because of marketing/trendhead rubbish......why let it happen againby applying the term to anything with a trap ? |
Posted By: feva_sailor
Date Posted: 09 Jul 06 at 8:47am
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exactly it doesnt really matter if its a skiff or not lets just sail our boats! ------------- |
Posted By: combat wombat
Date Posted: 09 Jul 06 at 6:01pm
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Strawb, why pick fights with people about this? You've been to
SA, seen the arguments, then you've brought it here and bashed it out
some more, in the process ragging on the Musto. The term skiff is massively overused, in order to make people feel better about their own boats because apparently if your boat is a "skiff" then you are just a bigger man for it. But, words do not have a set meaning that never changes over time. You should know this, I have a feeling you're doing a law degree. Meanings of words change as the usage of those words changes - I'm willing to argue that the word skiff now has come to mean high powered, fast and tippy dinghies that require finely tuned skills to sail. I will not provide a list of boats that are or aren't in my opinion skiffs, but some definitely are. 49ers, 800's, Mustos etc. This does not make them better boats than others that aren't "skiffs", just in that class of boats which is now widely know as "skiffs". ------------- B14 GBR 772 |
Posted By: les5269
Date Posted: 09 Jul 06 at 6:28pm
This is what I meant (Though I'm sure they were used on British men of war too But isn't that exactly my point Skiff is Skiff because someone chooses to call it that.End of story ! Is it such a big problem though ?! ------------- 49er 531 & 5000 5025 and a mirror(now gone to mirror heaven)! http://www.grafham.org/" rel="nofollow - Grafham water Sailing Club The greatest inland sailing in the country |
)Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 09 Jul 06 at 6:52pm
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What's the big deal about describing a boat as a skiff or not????? To someone who doesn't sail do you think the wording "skiff" means anything to them? I'm quite happy calling my boat a high performance racing craft because that is what is, no grey area in reffering to it as that. ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 09 Jul 06 at 8:15pm
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Les, the point I should have made was that old ships boats like jolly
boats, longboard, whaleboats, launches etc WERE sailing boats; since a skiff was a ship's boat and ship's boats were sailing boats, skiffs were definitely sailing boats. It's not a real problem. It's just that each side of this controversy seems to think it's a simple matter. In fact if (for other reasons) you've actually sat down and gone through the history seriously, you find the historical facts are more complicated than people on each side pretend, so each side has a lot more power behind their argument than the other side will admit! .Plus I have an unreasonable dislike for people who bend the language just to satisfy their own ego or to apply it to a product to sell more!  |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 10 Jul 06 at 1:42am
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This post was in response to someone who posted that a skiff was something that planes upwind and gybes downwind. The problem is that (to quote Julian Bethwaite) planing is “virtually impossible” to define, and "the more you look into it the more impossible it is to define”. Modern design in skiffs is often about blurring the whole planing/displacement divide, so it's hard to make a case for upwind planing as a skiff characteristic. Julian for example tries to keep the bow low, and pretty much make the boat go bow up (which is what many people call "planing") as late as possible; so maybe a 49er isn't planing upwind much in light winds. He said his Prime Mk2 18 (45kg hull, 2 crew, mast about 38' tall, wingspan of 8.8m I think) was a semi-displacement boat upwind, yet it was damn quick. Paul Bieker says that the 14 "spends a lot of time at transitional planing speeds upwind". Cherub guys have called the RS800 "marginal" at planing....which means that we'd just have arguments about whether a boat was planing or not. Some 12 guys refer to their boats as "displacement" shapes because like many skiff designs they are now aimed at reducing wavemaking and wetted surface drag, not planing early. Look at the latest 12 Foot skiff - very much Moth style. So it's not as if we can just look at a boat and go "oh looks its planing upwind it must be a skiff"; it's very hard to work out whether they are planing. As Moths and the "humpless" style hulls indicate, planing upwind is not the only (maybe not the best) route to speed, and planing upwind is NOT a keynote in skiff design. As early as the '50s, John Westell noted that his 505 rewarded angles downwind, and it planes upwind, so that would make it a skiff under your definition. Tasars can plane upwind and you sail angles (very low) most of the time, and they aren't skiffs. Certainly old skiffs didn't plane upwind, yet they are skiffs. There seems to be a simple way of working out where "traditional" racing skiffs physically differ from dinghies. They have always had more sail and crew-induced righting moment for their length than a dinghy. When you plot the skiffs in terms of SA and RM for length they stand out distinct from any dinghy of their era and just about always have. These two factors drive the rest of the design to a large extent. So it's easy to work out the physical characteristics of the traditional skiffs.....whether that is enough to work out what makes a skiff is a different story. PS anyone bored by this thread, the simple answer is not to read it! |
Posted By: swiftsolo.org
Date Posted: 10 Jul 06 at 7:03am
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I think the reason that the word "skiff" is being borrowed so much is that "dinghy" is such a grotty sounding word. The average person that knows anything about boating thinks of a dinghy as a tender behind a yacht or motor boat. This is hardly a glamorous image to describe the amazingly efficent craft that we call dinghies or skiffs. The word dinghy to me is perilously close to the word dingy which doesn't sound good. Why do the Olympics call dinghy sailing yachting? Answer dinghy is such an unglamourous term. The challenge that we should set ourselves is to come up with a sexy sounding name to describe high performance sailing non-ballested monohulls that can roughly equal or better windspeed downwind. This could be used to describe the traditional skiff classes as well as the more recent derivatives. The keel boats have come up with the term "Sports Boat" for fast planing keel boats. What about -
Any other suggestions? ------------- Building a Swift Solo http://www.aussieswift.livesaildie.com - First Australian Swift Solo Sailing F28 Tri - family cruiser |