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Strange lee/weather helm effect

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1945
Printed Date: 15 Aug 25 at 11:54pm
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Topic: Strange lee/weather helm effect
Posted By: Marine Boy
Subject: Strange lee/weather helm effect
Date Posted: 29 Jun 06 at 10:40am
My Xenon (two-hander asymetric) has had a neutral helm since I first set it up (so much so that you can steer with two fingers in an F3, but I decided to play with the shroud settings (big mistake). I moved the shrouds down about an inch and now on one tack I have weather helm and the other I have lee helm (both quite pronounced). I can understand the weather helm as the CE has moved aft, but lee helm?
Checked for twist in the foils and visually the mast is vertical (side to side).
I didn't have time to put the shrouds back but as this is the only change I made I am presuming returning them will put everything right, but why?
 



Replies:
Posted By: Bruce Starbuck
Date Posted: 29 Jun 06 at 10:49am

You're talking about upwind, right?

It sounds very strange. There's no logical explaination for that, but these things are so hard to describe with words. I bet it's something dead obvious though, which is probably something else other than mast rake.

Raking the mast back would affect the feel of the boat a bit, but obviously by the same amount on both tacks assuming you dropped both shrouds back the same amount.

So, dunno.

 



Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 29 Jun 06 at 2:38pm

This is going by purely what you have said above but if befor ehand you had very light and neutral steering it sounds as if you had the right settings initially, usually you would drop the shroud points for slightly heavier weather and at the same tyime what we ofund in the 200 was that you had heavier steering until you raised the centre board a bit which helps tremendously infact its the same in the 300 by lifting the board up a bit in the white stuff it eases the steering ive found. So give that a try. Could also be a problem with your sail shape perhaps the slot asweell or maybe your spreader lengths and angles are not the same which could possibly give this problem but you would probably see characteristics of this in the mast which you say is straight but it could be worth checking all the same. Did you move the mast heel position also or just drop the pins a bit. An inch sounds like quite a big difference i know that the difference between our light and heavy settings in the 200 are not as much as that but we also move the mast heel position which makes a difference.



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http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine

FOR SALE:

I14 2 Masts 2 poles 3 Booms, Foils Kites/Mains/Jibs too many to list.


Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 29 Jun 06 at 3:13pm

The actual construction of the Xenon hull may be causing this effect. We noticed that on the Omega, when the rig loaded up the hull over an extended period of time that indentations in the hull became present within the points near the shrouds. What may have happened is by moving the shroud down one pin, you have increased the loading on the hull to the extent that one of the shrouds is causing the hull to flex on one side when the boat is powered up while the other side is still rigid when loaded up. The Laser Vagos made from the same hull material don't use high rig tensions probably for the reason that the hulls are not rigid enough to support high loads without flexing.



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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: MainlySwimming
Date Posted: 29 Jun 06 at 3:44pm

I asked the Topper rep at the Boat Show in January what the main differences were between the Xenon and the Omega...he pointed out the alloy bar running across the Xenon and said something like "that's to stop it folding up like the Omega does when you put lots of rig tension on"....

 

 

 



Posted By: Martin W
Date Posted: 29 Jun 06 at 3:51pm

Could you have the lower shroud tension much more on one side than the other .  They are only done up with bits of string and it is quite easy to do.  If one was very tight, and the other loose this might make it different one side to the other. 

If you tension them before putting on jib tension, it may even make the mast lean to one side regardless of the shroud tension, by twisting the whole rig.

The mast would bend one way on one tack and the other on the other.

 

 

 

 

 



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Martin


Posted By: m_liddell
Date Posted: 29 Jun 06 at 8:28pm
Check the spreaders.


Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 29 Jun 06 at 8:36pm
really stupid suggestion, is your tiller bent?

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http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine

FOR SALE:

I14 2 Masts 2 poles 3 Booms, Foils Kites/Mains/Jibs too many to list.


Posted By: Marine Boy
Date Posted: 29 Jun 06 at 8:53pm
Thanks for the replies all...
 
Originally posted by Chris Noble

really stupid suggestion, is your tiller bent?
 
No, tiller is fine.
If you let go of the tiller on one tack it comes toward you and goes away on the opposite tack (equally about 4 seconds from central to fully across, beating in an F2).
My theory (fwiw) is that the shrouds are of unequal length (and always have been) but that when I originally set it up, because the CE was so close to the CLR that any sideways deviation of the mast wouldn't be that obvious. Now that I have moved the CE, the bias is now exagerated.
I have a suspicion that when it was 'balanced' (before I played silly bu**ers) that it pointed higher on one tack than the another but that I couldn't detect it.
I will do some serious measuring before I return to the original shroud settings and report back.
   


Posted By: Calum_Reid
Date Posted: 29 Jun 06 at 9:52pm
Shrouds are rarely the same length. It is sensible to measure them. You will be very lucky to have a set of exactly identicle shrouds!

OH and btw this talk of boats not being able to take rig tensions etc and using low ones to prtect the boat seems odd because when your sailing alon up the beat your leward shoud often goes slack meaning that there must be more tension in the windward shroud that the ammount of tension you have pulled on. Now you can stop the leward shroud going slack but it takes ALOT of tension. For example in the 400 (admitidly in a big breeze) we would sail with over 500lbs and still have a slack leward shroud.

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Posted By: combat wombat
Date Posted: 29 Jun 06 at 10:24pm
Just to clarify, you should always carry some weather helm upwind.  This is quicker as you make ground to windward better (with the rudder acting as a foil stopping you slipping off sideways better).

Obviously not too much though or the rudder drags too much. 


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B14 GBR 772


Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 01 Jul 06 at 7:44pm
An easy way to check if the mast is upright is to cleat the main haliard so that it just touches the side deck on one side of the boat and then see if its the same on the other side of the boat.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 02 Jul 06 at 7:17pm

Originally posted by Calum_Reid

Shrouds are rarely the same length. It is sensible to measure them. You will be very lucky to have a set of exactly identicle shrouds!

OH and btw this talk of boats not being able to take rig tensions etc and using low ones to prtect the boat seems odd because when your sailing alon up the beat your leward shoud often goes slack meaning that there must be more tension in the windward shroud that the ammount of tension you have pulled on. Now you can stop the leward shroud going slack but it takes ALOT of tension. For example in the 400 (admitidly in a big breeze) we would sail with over 500lbs and still have a slack leward shroud.

It may seem odd, but it works. The classic boat for low rig tension is the Firefly, and the sails are cut to make low rig tension work. Our Firefly is nearly 50, and is still competitive in the fleet. I have my doubts that and Vagos will be racing in 50 years, but the premis is still the same - low rig tension means folding your boat up less, even though windward shrouds go tight.



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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 13 Jul 06 at 12:07am
This is how I see it.  The rig tension is the main factor in prebend of the mast.  When the pressure on the rig starts to slacken the shrouds then the prebend is no longer under control.  Its best if this transistion occurs at a wind speed which corresponds with the change from being underpowered to overpowered.  The right rig tension is the one that creates this relationship.  If the boat is not stiff enough the rig will slacken before you get maximum power and this may mean you lose power.  I can certainly depower my 4000 rig by easing the rig tension (although there are other complicating factors like rake).  A flexible boat will mean a rig which is unpredictable.  This is only one of the reasons why a stiff hull just feels better than a floppy one.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 13 Jul 06 at 4:49am
Rig tension is a lot less critical in non trapeze boats.

Back in the early 70s before big rig tension (and boats that could take it) there used to be a moderate wind situation where the gust would come, crew would hit the trapeze, all the tension would come off the windward shroud and onto the leeward one, the spreaders instead of pushing the mid mast to leeward by the tension in the windward shroud would be pushing the mid mast to windward, the top of the rig would flop off, the whole thing depower, and back off the trapeze again...

So if the crew is on the wire and you reduce the rig tension on your 4T the spreaders are doing less and the rig depowers. On an RS400, by contrast, this doesn't happen nearly so much. So on a trapeze boat monumental rig tension keeps the windward spreader working...



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