Is this good for One Design Sailing?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1926
Printed Date: 16 Aug 25 at 12:52am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Is this good for One Design Sailing?
Posted By: JimC
Subject: Is this good for One Design Sailing?
Date Posted: 23 Jun 06 at 1:35pm
So, is this sort of thing (you can only win if you have whizzo's latest superfast boat) good for one design classes? You ignore this ort of thing if its in an advert I guess, but here it feels more like editiorial content... |
Replies:
Posted By: phantom871
Date Posted: 23 Jun 06 at 2:05pm
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Having sailed Scorps this looks blinding for the individual with the money to buy the new kit!
But It will lead to the Modern /Classic debate! End up with a split PY and the true spirit of one design being lost!
------------- If its bent pull harder |
Posted By: Bruce Starbuck
Date Posted: 23 Jun 06 at 2:34pm
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I hate these self-congratulatory adverts on Y&Y. P&B are the main culprits, it has to be said.
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Posted By: yellowhammer
Date Posted: 23 Jun 06 at 3:15pm
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no comment (V3000) |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 23 Jun 06 at 3:26pm
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I wont comment on the article but seems to me all P&B/Ovi are doing is creating the best boat they can within the rules - isn't that what one-design sailing is all about? Rick ------------- |
Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 23 Jun 06 at 3:35pm
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The same just happened in the Ospreys and caused all sorts of noise BUT no one has said the new mk 4 is any faster and early results dont show any huge advantage. Its happened to the fireballs who now have a classic fleet and the Hornets some years back and you only see the revos racing. It may be a good thing for a strong class like the Scorp more new boats mean more good second hand ones for the mid fleet sailors. |
Posted By: SymBoy
Date Posted: 23 Jun 06 at 5:26pm
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Give P&B a break, you can't exactly sell many boats if you claim they are no faster than the current boats! I'm sure the Scorpion class will introduce sensible rules if this new epoxy boat outclasses eveyone else. |
Posted By: aardvark_issues
Date Posted: 23 Jun 06 at 7:28pm
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I think the new boat is likely very similar to the Specialized marine one, as Chris (Specialized) is now at Ovington. I'm sure that was probably made in epoxy anyway. As long as the hull material is still glass I seriously doubt there will be any step change in performance... |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 24 Jun 06 at 7:46am
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Precisely. If you don't like this kind of thing, sail a SMOD. |
Posted By: vscott
Date Posted: 24 Jun 06 at 10:55am
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As a delighted helm of a Mark 4 Osprey, it is definitely stiffer and better than our 17 yr old Porters but there is no way I am going to succeed just because I have a new boat. It is certainly as good as a good wooden one, but it has to be to succeed. Who is going to by a boat that is known to be slower than the wooden ones? It has been built with the intention to last, and still be competative after many seasons. So far they are going very well but I don't think they are going to be so different as to split the fleet, like in the FFs where there are 3 groups now. ------------- Mk IV Osprey 1314 Think Again 
Kielder Water Sailing Club |
Posted By: Silverlode
Date Posted: 24 Jun 06 at 10:26pm
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I was at Grafham in a wooden Scorpion behind Dave and Chris. The foam boat is definitely on the pace, but I wouldn't say it outclassed the wooden boats - I reckon I was just beaten by better sailors. It's great to have a viable option in the class for people who are put off by the whole paint and varnish thing. (5th) ------------- Scorpion 1995 |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 26 Jun 06 at 2:24pm
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To add my 2p to this debate. Specificaly on the Scorpion. Builders have only just managed to build a Foam sandwich boat down to weight that was strong enough. Purely because the Scorpion shape (along with other notable the Enterprise) was designed to be build in wood and has lots of sharp corners and tight corners which epoxy/glass contruction does not lend itself to. I believe Chris's first foam boat (hull number 1994) was among the first of the 'new breed' of boats. They certainly don't seem to be any faster and I do have to say the wooden Scorps are an absolute work of art, the fact that they are competitive (and hold a long competitive life, boats that are getting on for 15/20 years old are still competitive) is a bonus. I think, as Silverlode has already mentioned, that the plastic boats will give an option for those who like the class but dont want the maintenance issues often (and wrongly) associated with wooden boats. Paul ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: anthonyfca
Date Posted: 27 Jun 06 at 2:49pm
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"is creating the best boat they can within the rules - isn't that what one-
design sailing is all about?" I thought one design was about testing crew skill, not constructors, which sounds more like formula 1 motor racing to me. The idea being affordable racing as opposed to cheque book racing. As long as the terms of reference are agreed then everyone can make their choices. Anthony |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 27 Jun 06 at 3:36pm
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A lot of one design classes have a set of rules that allow generous tolerances as they were orignally intended for home build. The most extreme I believe is the fireball. By going to 1 extreme of the tolerances the modern 'wide' Fireball has a significant advantage over it's older brethren most notably in waves. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 28 Jun 06 at 11:03am
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At the other extreme... the Wayfarer class seems to evolve its class rules in order to maintain the competitivity of boats built some 40 years ago. As a result - there are no home-builds, no modern epoxy/plywood version. Rebuilds now have to be measured before work starts so that the re-built boat has the same dimensions... even if any modifications are within tolerances. There was huge controversy in the class (before my time...) about this. There is now a new builder - will they produce a faster/cheaper boat? When we are talking one-design boats how long should boats remain competetive at the highest level. I imagine one could find examples of "Kleenex" classes in which boats do not last long... and others in which boats go on and on. Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 28 Jun 06 at 11:59am
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No that is SMOD racing ...... here we go again ... ------------- |
Posted By: yellowhammer
Date Posted: 28 Jun 06 at 12:01pm
i can't understand the logic in pegging back the class to keep 40 year old boats competitive old, less competitive boats can help people get a foothold in a class, but if you expect to be a front-runner you should expect to shell out for the most competitive kit the Fireballs seem to have it about right, where developments keep the top end sailors replacing their boats/sails regularly, feeding their cast offs down the fleet you just have to be prepared to factor in an element of annual depreciation to compete at the front in class or club racing provided development is evolutionary, not revolutionary, there's always a ready market/good prices for the best cast-offs if you're not sailing at the highest level there really is no point in having the top spec equipment (unless you've money burning a hole in your pocket and want the 'cudos') |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 28 Jun 06 at 12:44pm
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I see the Scorpion Inlands winner was totally dominant in the light airs on the Sunday and (slightly) less so in the F6-7 of the Saturday. Had it been the other way round, I might believe it was the boat, but as it was it must have been the sailors responsible for the success. If the Scorpions now have a glass boat that is competitive then good luck to them - every class needs to have a viable glass boat on offer if it is to flourish these days. |
Posted By: anthonyfca
Date Posted: 29 Jun 06 at 4:48pm
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and what pray, is SMOD racing?
go carts? a disease? .. single modular one design? .. hmmm Sinister Methods One Designs?... erm.. Slightly Modified Once Designed racing.. None of the above? Have to admit now that contrary to my belief five minutes ago, I don't know everything :-) Anthony |
Posted By: Charlie
Date Posted: 29 Jun 06 at 5:10pm
| Single manufacturer one design, i think |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 29 Jun 06 at 5:12pm
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SMOD = Single Manufacture One Design e.g. Laser, Topper, Musto Skiff ... ------------- |
Posted By: anthonyfca
Date Posted: 29 Jun 06 at 6:09pm
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ugh, so simple!
Thanks Anthony |
Posted By: TonyL
Date Posted: 30 Jun 06 at 1:03am
| It's simplistic to say to anyone who's worried about the arms race factor in a One Design to "Sail a SMOD". While we might see the need for careful evolution of a One Design to take account of modern materials to reduce cost/improve performance, surely these developments should be retro-fittable wherever possible to minimise the chance of making most of the fleet obsolete? I do wonder if some classes are being overly impacted by those with a vested commecial interest in driving change. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 30 Jun 06 at 8:52am
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MAybe ... but it is a balance for a class. Fireballs really got it right; as have Merlins I guess ... both with Winder Boats behind them ... ------------- |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 30 Jun 06 at 9:02am
The Fireball is only now starting to come good though with the modern 'wide bow' boats being in pocket reach of your average club sailor. You can still buy a bargain basement older 'narrow' boat and have a huge amount of fun though. Plus don't forget the Fireball CA (UK) have been very proactive in encouraging the older boats back on to the ciruit with a 'classic' circuit being run in parallel with the main fleet. The Blaze although it is a SMOD has also devloped from the original boat with a rig change some 6 years back which tansformed the boat. Again the CA were very instrumental in making this change and making sure exisiting boats were not immediately obsolete by having a transition period and some easy to follow instructions on how to change your boat to the new design. Paul PS We can than the Aussies with their Delange hulls for the Fireball revolution (I think). ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 30 Jun 06 at 9:12am
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Did the 'balls get it right? You can't really race an older boat against a Winder, can you? Yet there are a few features of the 'ball (a boat I generally love, incidentally) that really could do with uprating. For example, sailmakers have been telling them for years that the rig could usefully lose ca. 30cm from the boom and gain the same amount on the spi. pole. I think that every so often classes have to be realistic and accept that change is due. There are lots of successful examples, for one the Firefly, which years ago got a new jib and spreaders instead of diamonds. That said, I think you have to be careful it's not change for change's sake, or just changing the class to a different crew weight band - I've always felt the Hornets lost their niche when they increased sail area to compete with the 'balls and lost their all-girl crew capability. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 30 Jun 06 at 9:23am
176 boats at your worlds is a good indicator I'd suggest ... ------------- |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 30 Jun 06 at 9:31am
How many old boats there? Not many I guess, in which case tha class could have profited even more from the new wave by a few more timely updates. But no, good luck to the 'balls, just a pity see so few at clubs these days, or am I visiting the wrong clubs (QM, Burghfield, Medway - all good 'ball locations, I'd suggest) |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 30 Jun 06 at 9:32am
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Rule changes help to keep a class relevant to modern sailing and the demands of today's sailors. It is a matter for each class to decide the pace of change, and there are very wide variations. The succesful classes have managed change and development over long periods... and continue to provide first class racing. Examples of these would be the Star, the Dragon, the Snipe, the 505 and many more. For instance, Dragon metal masts had lead weights in them for years to maintain the same cente of gravity as wooden masts. Once the wooden masts were gone, the lead weights came out. However, classes can be too conservative. The Mermaid class, an Irish "heavy dinghy", refused to accept a GRP version of the boat, condeming the class to a long slow death... or the emergence of a cloned class which wil eventually compete. One great advantage of one design as opposed to SMOD classes is that boats can be adapted to particular requirements of helm and crew, Some class rules seem to have unsusually tight restrictions for no apparaent logical reason... would an Ent not be an Ent if they were to allow centre mainsheeting?
Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Ian S
Date Posted: 30 Jun 06 at 10:56am
Depends what you mean by old boat.. if it's over 10 years old then not far off a third of the fleet... |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 30 Jun 06 at 11:36am
Well there we have it - the Fireballs are the example for all ... ------------- |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 30 Jun 06 at 12:43pm
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Was the it bottom third of the fleet, though? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Ian99
Date Posted: 30 Jun 06 at 12:55pm
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Not really - have a look at the results on http://www.fireball-worlds.com - www.fireball-worlds.com - any boat with a sail number less than 145xx is probably more than ten years old. There's even a few right up at the top end....
|
Posted By: Ian S
Date Posted: 30 Jun 06 at 3:44pm
| 13945 probably about 1985/86 finished 10th ish? |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 30 Jun 06 at 4:15pm
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Think the 505s actually have it spot on for one-design classes......... As for SMODs, I like the classes which allow you to use whatever rope, blocks, tillers, cleats, etc, that you want to use. Had a look at the rules for measuring up the 49er the other week and they seemed sensible for a SMOD. Theres nothing worse than having usuable rope in your tool box for such things as kite halyards only to be to told by the class rules you can't use that rope type and must phone up the manufacturer and pay over the odds to get the class specific rope (or at least get it cut at your local marina). ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 02 Jul 06 at 7:19pm
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Good to hear the Fireballs have it right, they are a great boat to sail, and have weathered the new boat storm better that almost any class. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: damp_freddie
Date Posted: 11 Jul 06 at 8:40pm
not these days it seems. Go buy something out the box. Vago, RS500 , 29er, RS800, 59er you name it. should it not be "too many old classes" rather than "too many new 'OD' classes"? why should an 18 year old loose to a 45 year old with a boat worth five grand more? I'm all for out the box racing. Just look at the RS400 and Laser 4000. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Jul 06 at 11:59pm
| Seeing as I started it... What I thought was dubious was not the business of manufacturers claiming their boat is fastest so much as the material appearing as if it were editorial rather than advertising copy. After all, when you see "Advert" you automatically mark the believability down 50%! |
Posted By: Chris Turner
Date Posted: 12 Jul 06 at 4:54am
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FYI, The Scorpion is not a one design but a restricted development class. I believe the Fireball and certainly the Merlin are also in this bracket. Also, as the builder of the Scorpion the class approached me to build them this way. The boat is no more expensive than a wooden one, it is the same shape as the wooden ones in fact it identical to the current wood hull design which Phil Morrison optomised almost 15 years ago. This boat has also been around since '99, GRP boats were first seen in the class 30 odd years ago. I think the its good for any class to move with the times, didn't the good old "one design" Laser have a new kicker system introduced? Did not the RS800 have a new mast? etc |
Posted By: feva_sailor
Date Posted: 12 Jul 06 at 7:41am
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as chris said nothing will always stay a proper on edesign new things will always be introduced.the laser 3000 for instance,they introduced the v3000 that is now class legal but they were always updating the one design rules before. ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Jul 06 at 8:33am
Really? You'd better let the RYA know, they've got your Class rules wrong...
http://www.rya.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/B5000280-E294-43A2-9017-2 074021796CD/0/ClassRulesScorpion.pdf |
Posted By: feva_sailor
Date Posted: 12 Jul 06 at 8:38am
the link you put dosnt work  ------------- |
Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 12 Jul 06 at 8:57am
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Try http://www.rya.org.uk/KnowledgeBase/technical/classrules.htm - http://www.rya.org.uk/KnowledgeBase/technical/classrules.htm and click on National Scorpion class, in the Class Rules table. ------------- http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/index.html - Lancing SC 
|
Posted By: Chris Turner
Date Posted: 12 Jul 06 at 12:43pm
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Sorry, my mistake. It does open another can of worms though, what is the definition of a one design? Most National classes have a set of class rules with a set of hull tolerances which obviously means boats will be optomised within those tolerances, can that then be called a one design?
|
Posted By: SymBoy
Date Posted: 12 Jul 06 at 12:51pm
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I suggest that the class rules were written in the days that a ±1" building tolerance was deemed as acceptable for One-Designs. These days SMOD are built to much higher tolerances (apart from weight, but that's for another day!! So although the class rules state One Design , by today's standards, the Scorpion class is a restricted class with tighter tolerances than a development class. Like many of the national classes, the Scorpions are in the process of re-drafting their rules to fit the ISAF template so may be this term will be revised changed. |
)Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 13 Jul 06 at 4:56am
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I figure a one design is one in which there is just one set of plans and one designer who gets all the royalties.
I sometimes think that that the tighter the rules then the more sailors reckon there is to gain per half inch of change - Merlins and Cherubs go much the same speed with quite different shapes, for instance, yet wide bow Fireballs are considered totally dominant. Reasonable tolerances are essential for any class that willbe built out of wood, and especially homebuilds, the process just isn't that accurate. However I wouldn't be suprised if even SMODs vary a lot more than people think. Moulds can change shape with poor storage for instance (unless its that big block of metal Toppers are injection moulded in) and it might be interesting to do detailed measurement of boats in a SMOD class with different builders in different countries as the moulds age... |
Posted By: Ian S
Date Posted: 13 Jul 06 at 8:14am
| I seem to recall hearing that 49er rudders from differnet builders aren't interchangeable.. be more interesting to weigh some of the SMOD stuff though. |
Posted By: Chris Turner
Date Posted: 13 Jul 06 at 8:33am
| The 49er foils have from the begining of this year all been built from the same moulds with a embosed 49er logo. The older foils which many were faired by third parties still had to comply to class rules and will now be phased out over a period of time. |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 13 Jul 06 at 9:55am
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All sorts of variables on SMODs - like boats being left in the mould for a few weeks to stiffen up, testing several dozen masts to get the one that is right, or micro variations in sails size and shape...
Problem is sailors aren't one design and the too strict one designs allow little or no work to get them adapted to the crew.
Surely the real success of a one design is when the best kit used is available to all. Even though there are major variations possible in hull shape, keel position etc, the Star is a good example - only 2 builders, 2 sailmakers and 1 mast maker. The top guys all have new boats every year and new sails every regatta - but at that level of competition this is normal. They use the same sails... I saw one sailmker turn up with 5 suits of sails, one for each of 4 customers and one for him. The customers each chose their sails (without opening the sail bags!) and the sailmaker, (Olympic medal and multi world champion) took the one that was left. That is what one designs should be like.
Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 14 Jul 06 at 12:20pm
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There's a lot of talk of people testing "dozens of masts" in a few SMOD classes, but since most of the tales are about classes that are Olympic (or much bigger than other classes) that may tell us more about the level of competition than anything else. Secondly, we have to ask if it's true. The local Olympic bronze medallists in two different SMODs here both often use cruddy gear, yet they still win. I think I have sailed the gear of the guy who got 7th in Athens, and it's not as good as my own '92 vintage gear. In these classes, of course, gear is provided at major worlds. I was rigging next to Paul Goodison at an ISAF-rated regatta where he picked up a new boat. The dealer who supplied the boat was on the national Laser team, so we can assume he would have kept any special gear for himself- yet Paul seemed to take the gear he was given quite happily, with no sign that he wanted anything special. The technical director of the Laser class is also a three-time world Masters champ and one of my arch-rivals - yet he has lent me his spare gear. If anyone had special stuff, surely he would know and he would not lend it and would be rather irate when I handed it back bent! There may be some gear that is faster than others, but for 99%+ of SMOD sailors the difference is immaterial. A classic test is that several Laser sailors have explained to me in detail why the 52,000 series Lasers are so fast compared to their 160,000 series boats - yet for some strange reason none of them have agreed to my suggestion that we swop boats with me chucking them an extra $500. That seems to show the difference between the truth and attempting to save face!  I can recall reading many a tale of woe from non-SMOD sailors about how their favourite mast was broken in transit and therefore they lost the regatta. The real success of a one design is surely when the SAME kit is available for all. What's the point of sailing an old shape, if it's not to ensure that all is identical? What's the point of sailing a slow boat when you can train your life out for a season and then have your arch rival pull a shiny new mast design and new-cut sails and beat you? I thought OD was a test of sailors, not a test of sailmakers and foil makers?? |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 14 Jul 06 at 12:25pm
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Makes sense to me ... but many people need the excuse of "wrong" kit to offset for their own inabilities. In a SMOD there is nowhere to hide ... Rick ------------- |
Posted By: anthonyfca
Date Posted: 14 Jul 06 at 1:07pm
yes me too. However money talks and over nearly 4 decades it seems wooden boat tolerances have been taken advantage of by improved manufacturing processes to defeat the spirit of the concept of "one design" - leaving those who want "one design" racing to have to choose something where only one (monopolistic) maufacturer is involved. Thusly I have drived the term "MODERN Sailing "Monopolistic One DEsign Racing Now" Seems to me that if one wants "faster", buy a different class boat. Buying something that is "faster than everyone else's" isn't One Design in any spirit at all. I had a traditional "Fireball" (13968 if anyone has her) and remember the new wide ones just arriving. Sure they were faster, but what fleet did they think they were racing against? I understand the attraction of development, it's fun! However, I think the presentation trailed behind the implementation. I never heard of SMOD in 1973. "One Design" meant sailors versus sailors, mostly. Development Class (e.g. Dragons) meant cheque book versus cheque book AND the skill as to where to spend the money, then be able to race it well - so more time was needed to be invested, all round. I think what the Moths have done is truly amazing. I aways loved the Merlin Rocket to see. What do I think? (I'm interested!) Let's see. I think One Design has been hi-jacked by SMOD (or rather by One Design manufacturers who see a profit advantage in some class cases). I think SMOD is deceptive to the advantage of other than simple sailors. I think One Design means One Design and an old and a new definition is unacceptable (because it's misleading, not least to those who hand on from one generation to the next). When is One Design One Design? When is One Design Single Manufacturer One Design? Oh Please. It's all about whether tolerances are tolerated as excuses to change the spirit of the Class Design. If they are then it is a Development class and that's NOT One Design, it's many, unlimited and amazing possibilities e.g. Moths. If a Class wants to change itself that's up to itself, based on whatever it wishes - as far as I can see that's looking at decades of history and taking what has been learned to better the sailing enjoyment whether by simple development of ideas within the design or changing the design to take opportunities offered by modern methods. Everything Changes. Everything Stays The Same. Nothing Changes. Stuck in Hotel room in Hungary, too hot to do anything I think this thread is a fascinating read, thanks to each for such elucidation. On reflection: I suppose it is up to each class to limit its tolerances to modern manufacturing capabilities (or not, but to DECIDE as such, not just find itself in that place as time passes), including time spent in a mold or whatever it takes to prevent tolerance testing designs. Would that be TTD? or OTT? :-) Anthony |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Jul 06 at 1:49pm
Isn't that a bit over-simplistic Chris? Sailing is a very complex sport, and the person who wins an event is the person who has put together the best capaign for that event. Raw sailing skill is never enough: at the very least its always got to be coupled with things like fitness, dieting or body building until your weight is right, understanding of the venue, local weather patterns and the like. Beyond that that there is a huge gradation of additional factors according to the class you are in. The smaller the number of factors - say regarding an eventwith supplied boats as being the one extreme - then the greater the weight on those individual factors. The larger the number of factors then perhaps the less important it is to be spot on in each one. I sometimes advance the devils advocate theory that a really tight one design ought not have adjustable cunningham or outhaul, maybe not even vang/kicking strap in order to make it an even purer test of boat handling! One designs where there are choices about sources of equipment etc add an extra skill in picking the suppliers and tuning their components to work together as part of the campaign, without having the greater level of choice of a box rule boat. It means you have some of the extra challenges, but not too many. They also have the advantages of competition between suppliers rather than monopoly. I think the test of any class rule set, however open or tight, is that a level playing field is avalable to all, but I don't think all the playing fields need to be the same shape... I think there's a case for all variations between the tightest SMOD and the loosest rule set (would that be speed record craft?) and its as pointless to say that the wider but maybe shallower challenges of a more open rule class are better or worse than the narrower and perhaps deeper challenges of a more closed rule. They're just different. |
Posted By: anthonyfca
Date Posted: 14 Jul 06 at 2:14pm
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variety is the spice of it all, springs to mind - I suppose as ever, that
unexpected variety is where discussion arises? Anthony |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 14 Jul 06 at 2:19pm
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Jim ... agreed. They are just different and you should select the challenge that appeals to you as an individual. For me I am not interested in testing my ability to buy the correct; sail, hull, spars or foils - I'm into sailing the same kit as the others and testing my ability at all the other factors. I can see why others would like to tinker with the bits that you have to pay for ... but that's not for me. Rick ------------- |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 14 Jul 06 at 3:19pm
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Really? According to the International Dragon Class Association website: "The Dragon's philosophy of gradual evolution within one-design principles has produced a boat with state of the art rig and boat handling controls, reducing the learning curve for sailors transferring from other classes and making the boat flexible enough to cater for every level of ability."
|
Posted By: BigFatStan
Date Posted: 14 Jul 06 at 3:53pm
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Well, I for one will stick up for the traditional One Design philosophy - ie. The boat has to measure within the class rules and after that you can do what you like. Part of the challenge for me has always been optimising the boat, rig and control systems - in a SMOD you can (at least in theory) go and buy I boat as fast as the champions - whoopee, and how boring is that? Because I am an old git I can remember when the Laser was introduced - the biggest culture shock was that you weren't allowed to do anything to the boat - that was really alien then - and in fact you have more options today than you did then. Boat bimbling is part of the sport - and it means you can optimise the boat to local conditions, crew weights and lots of other factors - in a STRICT one design there will be an optimum body form for the sailor and all you can do is change yourself to suit the boat - B*****Ks to that and pass the pies. I like the new Scorpion, it's a cool looking boat and will be good for the class, just as the Winder Fireball, The Revo Hornet and several other examples over the years. I am also looking forward to my new Mk 4 Osprey arriving next month - of course it's coming without fittings so that I can make the boat suit me and still be a one design. I'm not anti-SMOD in any way shape or form but to try to claim some kind of moral high ground because your boat is indistinguishable from the one next to it is ludicrous. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 14 Jul 06 at 5:10pm
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Fair enough BFS - no-one is claiming moral high ground just acknowledging we all enjoy different challenges ... Rick ------------- |
Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 14 Jul 06 at 7:09pm
| Well said Stan, good on yer chap, you fat b*****d. |
Posted By: Chris Turner
Date Posted: 14 Jul 06 at 11:06pm
|
Going back to the Scorpion in question, it is not new, it has been around since 1999, it measures exactly the same as the wooden boat I took the mould from which has been the current hull form for around 15 years. All that is new is that the hulls are being produced at Ovington's and the complete boat is being marketed by P+B. Good for the class? I think so, look at the Albacore, there is only one manufacturer, the tolerances have been tigtned up and now 25 year old boats are worth more than a new one. No new boats coming in, lack of good secondhand boats all this means no new blood into the class. |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 14 Jul 06 at 11:28pm
You're right , Jim there are different challenges and each is equally valid. I wrote that too hastily. I think arguably the anti-SMOD lobby is more strident in this forum than the pro-SMOD lobby, though. |
Posted By: anthonyfca
Date Posted: 15 Jul 06 at 10:21am
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well anyway, I enjoy racing an old boat and seeing how close I can get (or
not) to the hot shots/bigger boats etc.. I also enjoy handicap racing and all the ways there are to "equalise" things.. with crew invited from the bar the night before, I guess it depends what mood I am in.. Perfect One Design - i.e. SMOD is ok when the same crew is available and committed to put in the time on the water, otherwise other things have to be tweaked and SMOD doesn't allow that. (Dragons.. beautiful boats.) anthony |
Posted By: anthonyfca
Date Posted: 15 Jul 06 at 10:31am
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isn't it all about the management of the expectations of the class
participants? if a builder suddenly makes everyone else's boat obsolete.. that's not expected and thus not within the spirit of that class? If on the other hand, the chase of the greatest gain is part of the expected challenge in some classes.. like the Moth, in others (I dare not pick one this time) it's not expected that a new boat will make all others uncompetitive. So, what's good for one design sailing is good expectations management - much like much else in life and business really. Anthony |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 15 Jul 06 at 11:41am
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"Wishes" not "expectations". Class associations are run by the sailors in the class. Or, at least, they ought to be. |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 15 Jul 06 at 12:03pm
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Class associations are run by those : who have the time are sufficiently interested or have an axe to grind live within easy reach of where the meetings are held. The Int 14s used to have a tradition that rule changes were discussed at crew's union "meeting"... and quietly dropped if they were not approuved. Seems like a good idea, after all (except in the single handed classes) at least half of all racing sailors are not boat owners!
Gordon
------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Chris Turner
Date Posted: 15 Jul 06 at 12:15pm
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The 14's still operate a similar procedure to bring through changes. Each country can through its class association put forward a proposal for a change it then goes to the national associations who in turn pass it on to the membership for a vote. The National association will then vote on the proposal according to its associations wish. But then it still has to go though the channels at ISAF before approval. The Scorpion association are very good and vote any proposals through its membership, there has recently been a proposal to have laminate sails much the same as the Fireballs have done. Any changes of the National class also have to be approved by the governing body, in its case the RYA. |
Posted By: feva_sailor
Date Posted: 15 Jul 06 at 3:18pm
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how did the term smod originate?was it from the saint mawes one design or allso called smod? ------------- |
Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 15 Jul 06 at 3:53pm
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Single It's an http://www.answers.com/acronym&r=67 - acronym . By the way, how's it going, Isis? ------------- http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/index.html - Lancing SC
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 Jul 06 at 8:30pm
Well, one hopes so anyway... Typically SMOD rules are controlled bythe manufacturer and often if they feel a need to put a specification change in they will. Of course some boats that are regarded as SMODs are made by multiple builders internationally. Also some builders/designers put more spec changes than others - the Bethwaite boats seem more likely to get fixes in the light of experience (why on earth did RS persist with that stupid alloy sleevein the 600 for so long). Here's a question... would you regard the B14 as a SMOD? One builder as regards hull, but you're allowed choice of sailmaker I believe. |
Posted By: anthonyfca
Date Posted: 15 Jul 06 at 8:49pm
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expectations/wishes.
I meant expectations. Wishes are of course expressed via the governing rules or whatever. these lead to expectations from everyone (not just existing activists within a class as defined variously above) as to what the class is about. If those expectations are found wanting, especially by new joiners or backwoodsmen alike, then there's trouble afoot. Anthony |
Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 15 Jul 06 at 11:30pm
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Well, one hull & mast builder in the UK and one in Aus. Sails are very open. The Lark class is pretty similar ( UK boats only !) Its a neat rule as it gives a bit of freedom and provides the lesser mortals with a ready supply of decent second hand sails. Sail development takes place but at a modest rate but, alas, with a B14, sailing skill is still king. ------------- Steve |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 16 Jul 06 at 7:43am
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The rules express the wishes of the members. Or should do. "Managing expectations" is a term commonly used in the management of customers or clients in a commercial relationship. A class association is a member organisation, not a commercial one. I've run commercial relations with clients and I've helped run a class association and it is not the same thing at all. You are confusing two completely different types of relationship.
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Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 16 Jul 06 at 7:51am
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Yes. That is a pretty common situation for keelboat SMODs. There are also OD keelboats with multiple licenced manufacturers e.g. J/24, J/105, Dragon. This is not the same as, say, a Europe, where any builder can produce a boat from the plans - they have to be licenced and it is often something like one USA and one European builder. MMOD?
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Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 16 Jul 06 at 10:11am
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I woudn't - there is one builder but I don't think there is anything to stop anyone else building one if they wanted to subject to license... The sails & spars are open so I'd say it's a standard OD that happens to run much like a SMOD. I think a SMOD has idenical hull, sails, spars & foils ... Rick ------------- |
Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 16 Jul 06 at 9:14pm
For the B14, Ovington is the only builder in the UK and there is a builder in Aus. The spars are from one builder in the northern & and one builder in the southern hemispheres. Only the sails are truley open within class rules. It seems to work as sails get replaced more often than hulls and spars. I'm ashamed to admit I had an ISO with Sobstad sails that were so poor I wouldn't have used them as ground sheets but there was no alternative. I believe its critical to keep the sail makers lively and that way there is competition on pricing and quality. ------------- Steve |
Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 16 Jul 06 at 9:30pm
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err.. B14 'one design' and one spar builder .... what about the new carbon masts?
RS 200 and RS 400 went to a new foil manufacturer a while a go - the old foils are pretty rubbish, the new foils not bad. The new ones are much faster. |
Posted By: Chris Turner
Date Posted: 17 Jul 06 at 6:15am
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Yep, still only one spar builder, the alloy masts will phase out in time. One designs do change, Laser new kicker system etc, RS800 new mast, 200/400 new foils, 49er new foils, Topper centremain system etc. These are your SMOD's. The Scorpion is not a SMOD but multiple manufacturers, the grp boat is good for the class, note evryone wants to spend the winter varnishing or paying someone else to do it. How many wooden Fireballs are getting built these days? Come to that you don't see many new wooden Merlins being built either. You also need a licence to build issued by the RYA which has to be approved by the class association, obviously if this was to be bad for the class it wouldn't have happened at all. |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 17 Jul 06 at 10:43am
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They are being built, albeit they are the minority now. However suggestions that the Merlin is now a Winder SMOD are definitely premature. |
Posted By: anthonyfca
Date Posted: 17 Jul 06 at 1:02pm
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"Managing expectations" is a term commonly used in the management
[/QUOTE] I am not confusing them Stefan, I am applying them. I readily grant you the world of business has sought to in some way make it all scientific (another discussion!). However, the concept applies from romance to business to boats. Disapoint someone's expectations and unhappiness follows. Manage those expectations with care and all will be well. So, tell me a class is about crew skill only, then that is my expectation. Tell me it's about wielding a screewdriver, twiddling with handicaps and crew skill (or the lack of it in my case), then that is "ok" too. Tell me something is not what it turns out to be, is not "ok". So my point is, if I have one, that while the "class" manages itself, it's success (continuation) is oft a result of newcomers who stay, because their expectations were met, or even exceeded. I define "ok" as the ultimate success (grows and grows) or failure (dies out) of a class. Interesting that someone actually takes issue with me over "expectations"! :-) Curiouser and curiouser. Anthony |
Posted By: damp_freddie
Date Posted: 17 Jul 06 at 1:54pm
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Looks like there are two clear camps developing on this blustery thread 1) SMOD, or strict OD 2) - who spends, wins of course there are going to be a body type for a boat, hence we have a healthy range of boats to suit but I mean , you don't see people driving ford anglias with carbon steering wheels and kevlar roofs do you? I hope these hi tech "OD" upgrades alienate other owneres and drive people out of the older classes into a SMOD to suit. Many will agree there are too many classes, and I say too many older classes! there are pretty good development classes or restricted classes for the latter type above of cheque book junkie, or tweaky techie. |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 17 Jul 06 at 1:54pm
Sure, SMODs change, but most of the time it's just sticking on new bits of gear that would normally age (ie Laser kicker). On the other side of altering hulls (which I understand is not the case here), as an ex Flying 15 sailor I have to say that years ago, my state had the world champion and 5 fleets. Then the new hulls came in that used all the tolerances (the previous Aussie boats had been built to the middle of the tolerances because the class rules quite clearly said that boats that attempted to get improved performance from exploiting the tolerances should be chucked out). Soon afterwards, we had one (uncompetitive) fleet, because all our boats were useless at top level. Most guys went to a stricter OD. So it can certainly be a bad thing; it depends on many factors doesn't it?? |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 17 Jul 06 at 3:37pm
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It's not so simple. Spending on new sails every regatta isn't unknown in strict OD racing, and that costs much more than fitting a pair of barber haulers or re-rigging your mainsheet system (and is much less fun). I used to sail a Snipe, and that class permits a lot a fiddling on cheap stuff while keeping hulls pretty OD. After fiddling, in addition to the hours of pleasure had at my desk thinking of ways to fiddle, I'd imagine I'd got a technical advantage, and that would give me the psychological boost I needed to win. Looking back, I doubt my boat was significantly quicker (or slower) at all... Probably, by the same token, non-technical people got psyched out, but then if you're non-technical you'll be happy in a boring old SMOD... |
Posted By: anthonyfca
Date Posted: 17 Jul 06 at 5:20pm
That's a very good point - there is much off water pleasure when twiddling is allowed. I think twiddling by manufacturers playing with tolerances is entirely different because the average sailor does not have the same opportunity available to him. I do like that (old) Flying 15 rule about not using tolerances for gain, that is quite literally the spirit of the thing. I think a class saying "do what you like within a certain shape" is entirely different to technological tolerance twisting. So is the motive: if it's to sell more boats because all the old ones are now obsolete, that's very different to everyone being able to add the same tweak to their existing boat. Go faster for the sake of it = ok Go faster to sell hulls .. nope. (at least in such classes) Anthony |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Jul 06 at 7:12pm
For some folk anyway:-)
Mind you it seems to be as essential for a class to have some obsolesecence as it is for it not to have too much... Obviously if the class outdates its boats every 6 months no-one is going to want one, but equally if there is no motivation to buy new boats until they are completely clapped then there are no good, cheap and very nearly conmpetetive boats available to enter the class and the only people who will join the class are those who can buy new. A healthy secondhand market without too much depreciation is a very good thing for the class, because that tends to help with growth. Its good for the builder, becaue they shift lots of boats, which in turn means they help the class more and so on. Its quite a cunning plan for a SMOD to have mediocre gear amd sails, but strong hulls, because then the supplier can take on old boats, bung on new gear and sails at wholesale cost, and resell them. New boats are cheaper because of the cheaper bits, trade in prices are reasonable, and reconditioned boats good VFM. There's a lot of virtuous circle in that... |
Posted By: anthonyfca
Date Posted: 17 Jul 06 at 9:45pm
oo er.. I'll have to think about that one! I'm tempted to say death isn't the only reason boats become available! :-) anthony |
Posted By: damp_freddie
Date Posted: 17 Jul 06 at 10:39pm
Must agree with that. Some bits or set ups for personal preference
are usually allowed if they make no apparent disadvantage to others! On Jim Cs point, the issue with quality and quantity in SMODs will
be there- they are built down to a cost not up to a standard, which you
could say a cutting edge 505 or 420 hull and deck gear is. I
don't think there is anything more hidden agenda by using cheaper deck
gear which wears out than this. I'd hope these days the SMOD MMOD companies should be able to do a
pre-production run and then build to within a range you don't have to
worry much about in terms of performance. Contradictory to the RS400s old ones being poor foils, the very old
ones had good foils and then a little later the trailing edges started
wandering a bit. 'bout the same time the class realy took off...... |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 18 Jul 06 at 7:02am
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Let me satisfy your curiousity then. Firstly, I helped run a class association for a while and had to deal with people with the misconception that they were customers, not members. It happens to be a "hot button" of mine. You are also failing to grasp the distinction. Secondly, "managing expectations" is a phrase I use or hear on a daily basis, so I think I understand it's appropriate application. Finally, I'm an annoying pedant with a preoccupation with the accurate use of words. It's not my fault; blame my academic training, blame the requirements of my profession.....
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Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 18 Jul 06 at 7:08am
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You are forgetting that a significant number of people simply like changing classes every few years for a change. I don't think there are many classes with a genuine long-term shortage of 2nd hand boats. |
Posted By: Chris Turner
Date Posted: 18 Jul 06 at 8:07am
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There is a shortage of competitive boats in many classes, Fireball, Albacore and Scorpion to name a few. This is why the GRP Scorpion was built. The wooden boats are expensive and need maintaining. There was a definate need for a low maintainance lower cost boat that would be competitive. The class National Champion is sailing a wooden boat built in the early 90's and all the wooden boats since are the ones to go for but there are very few to fill the secondhand market. The mould was taken from one of these wooden boats so obviously the hull is the same shape as the rest of the boats for the last 16 years. If you look to the Albacore, they tigtned up the rules some years ago so the tolerances could not be used. You now have a fleet clamering after a few boats built 20years ago. The secondhand market is there but they are all uncompetitive boats, the very few old boats there are are comanding a very high price if being sold at all. So if you want to join this class what do you do? |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Jul 06 at 9:14am
Perhaps in the classes *you* sail [grin]. Seriously though that level of turnover won't be enough to grow a class. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 18 Jul 06 at 9:32am
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JimC - The above just looks like a sweeping anti-SMOD statement. On the MPS we have all Harken deck gear as standard, Hyde sails, a profiled Selden Carbon mast, an Ovi hull and excellent foils from DEM. I have sail MPS for years and the boat has never failed me and is almost maintenance free and holds it's price better than ANY boat I have ever owned. All these components are made to the highest standards so I don't know where you get the above view from ... not all SMOD's are the same... Rick ------------- |
Posted By: anthonyfca
Date Posted: 18 Jul 06 at 9:56am
oh I usually blame the parents.. Anthony |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Jul 06 at 11:46am
I don't think its an anti SMOD statement at all. It suggests a regime in which users get a cheaper new purchase price, good second hand values and a lively second hand market to build the class. None of those things are, in my opinion bad things. Quite the opposite. And I don't think I suggested that all SMODs are built and priced like that, but I am suggesting that if they are priced like that it is in no way a bad thing. A few development boat sailors, and I'm one, have a concern that modern "last for ever" carbon foam boats and gear stifle class growth by making for a very restricted second hand market. Because sailors keep their boats for many years there are few opportunities to enter the class with a reasonable second hand boat, new boats are very high spec and thus expensive, and the cost discourages experimentation. Over the course of a sailing career I suspect that your sailing will cost you about the same (and the number of months of "top of the fleet boatspeed" will be much the same) if you sell an expensive high spec none SMOD every 6 years or a cheaper lower spec SMOD every three years, but when you look at the total class numbers there will be twice as many of the cheaper boats about... |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 18 Jul 06 at 12:00pm
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It's this comment that I take exception to ... there is nothing mediocre about any of the MPS components ... Rick ------------- |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 18 Jul 06 at 1:03pm
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Oh yes, that too. Never even sailed until I was 21. No wonder I'm bitter and twisted. |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 18 Jul 06 at 1:05pm
He said "a SMOD", not "all SMODs" or even "most SMODs". |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 18 Jul 06 at 1:06pm
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(Why doesn't think forum have a "delete" button then? Please ignore.) |
Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 18 Jul 06 at 2:15pm
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Because it provides mild and passing entertainment to the rest of us, trying to work out what you've deleted Might be a repeat, might be daft  , might be rude or posted in the wrong thread! (someone even posted a message on the wrong forum once!)------------- http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/index.html - Lancing SC
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Posted By: feva_sailor
Date Posted: 18 Jul 06 at 4:16pm
oh that was me ------------- |
Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 18 Jul 06 at 8:58pm
all of them? ------------- |